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What if the germans...



 
 
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  #41  
Old January 16th 04, 12:43 PM
Keith Willshaw
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"Denyav" wrote in message
...
The classic example was their nuclear research project. There was
a period in late 44 when both Heisenberg and Diebner were
running parallel programs and both required heavy water.
There was only enough for one or the other but the German
reaction was to give each a portion


Diebner did not require any heavy water in late 44


Yes he did. His experimental reactor at Stadtilm was a
heavy water moderated design and his job tiltles included
Commissioner for Norwegian HeavyWater Production

,that the reason why he
succeded


He failed, the reactor never achieved criticallity, ironically
however they did accidentally discover that they got
greater neutron miltiplication amongst the graphite blocks
sourrounding the reactor than with the uranium assembly
in the reactor itself. At last in March 1945 they had
stumbled on the fact that graphite could be used as a
moderator, far too late to use that fact since US troops
arrived only days later.

And why British troops seized more than 10t heavy water in a warehouse
in Hamburg.


No such seizure was made and the maximum production during the
war was around 140 kg per month

You also forgat to mention Houtermans and von Ardenne.


No their period of original work came after the war when they
worked in the Soviet nuclear program.

Actually the only German researcher who could have produced
a bomb was Paul Harteck who attempted to develop the
centrifuge enrichment process with virtually no official
backing.

Keith




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  #42  
Old January 16th 04, 11:11 PM
WaltBJ
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German fighter endurance was a sore spot, jet or piston-engined. I
remember seeing Guntar Rall on TV ruefully stating that the LW
fighters had ninety minutes fuel whereas the Mustangs had eight hours
worth. (At least he still had a sens of humor.) When the red light
comes on you head for home or prepare to bail out. If Mustangs or
Tbolts are camping over your home drome and you have ten minutes fuel
left - gentlemen, that is a problem. So are the 1000 fighters the
Allies could put in the air at once - a target-rich environment is not
a good thing, especially if the targets are looking for you so they
can another coup.
Walt BJ
  #43  
Old January 17th 04, 01:54 AM
Denyav
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I guess he means those 75 years aren't over yet...

Yup, 75 year period will expire in 2020.
  #44  
Old January 17th 04, 02:03 AM
Denyav
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Houtermans and von Ardenne.
Not to mention that the German nuclear program was crippled severely by
the lack of heavy water, thanks to sabotage efforts of Thor Heyerdahl
(later famous for his Kon-Tiki raft showing the Egyptians could have
sailed to the Americas)


1) In spite of Allied bombings and efforts or Norwegian resistance Germans
transferred enough Heavy water to Germany over land route.
2)In summer of 44 Germans started to use graffit moderation and heavy water
moderation was put to back burner.
3)They did not even need to use their heavy water stocks.
  #45  
Old January 17th 04, 02:10 AM
Denyav
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Heyerdahl's chief radio operator (Knut Haugland) *was* part of the team
that parachuted into the German heavy water plant and blew it up.

http://www.arrl.org/news/features


Do you mean "ferryboat"?,plant itself was attacked by USAAF and RAF
previously,which proved to the Germans that allies were fully aware of german
intentions.(BTW Norwegian chief engineer of the plant was a British operative)
  #46  
Old January 17th 04, 05:47 AM
Denyav
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Yes he did. His experimental reactor at Stadtilm was a
heavy water moderated design and his job tiltles included
Commissioner for Norwegian HeavyWater Production


He was the scientific leader of Heavy water production in Norway and according
to his own testimony enough amounts of Heavy water arrived in Germany in
Aug/Sep 44 from Norway.
By the time the Heavy water from Norway arrived,it was no longer needed.He
failed, the reactor never achieved criticallity, ironically

however they did accidentally discover that they got
greater neutron miltiplication amongst the graphite blocks
sourrounding the reactor than with the uranium assembly
in the reactor itself. At last in Marc
1945 they had
stumbled on the fact that graphite could be used as a
moderator, far too late to use that


Strange,von Ardenne team reported as early as in Sep.42 that graphite could be
used as moderator alternative!.

No such seizure was made and the maximum production during the
war was around 140 kg per month


Yeah right,no such seizure ever made and also Saddam was about to build a
nuclear arsenal,German scientists forgat in 1945 what they knew in 1941,NV
Patrol boats attacked USS Maddox,Communists burned down Reichstag etc,etc.

No their period of original work came after the war when they
worked in the Soviet nuclear program.


No they were two of three most important scientists of German nuclear effort.
Guess what who has been ordered to built Soviet Bomb in Aug.45 by the Beria,A
soviet scientists or von Ardenne?.
(Obviously NKVD boss knew something about German bomb and its creators)
von Ardenne,knowing that he could never see Germany again if he accepted
Berias'offer and built a bomb for SU,diplomaticaly argued that soviet
scientists not germans should have leading role (federfuehrung) in making of
the soviet bomb,and germans should support them.That the reason why the soviet
bomb was built under sobiet management.

BTW ,Houtermans was a devoted Communist and anti-Nazi activist,he was in Soviet
Union before WWII and was put into jail during Stalins cleansing campaign.
When he (a German citizen) was arrested by Stalins henchmen,British gov't
protested and requested his immediate release,British protest was accompanied
by a threat of suspending commercial relations with SU.
After British protest he was released and went back to Germany,or more
precisely to Gestapo HQ.
Have you any idea why British gov't acted so for a German citizen and communist
jailed in Soviet Union?,

Actually the only German researcher who could have produced
a bomb was Paul Harteck who attempted to develop the
centrifuge enrichment process with virtually no official
backing.


Surely Harteck is one of founders of centrifuge enrichment technology and his
published studies are among thr best ,but in centrifuge technology Germany was
decades ahead of the rest of the world,there were many talents in this field
Zippe and Steenbeck for example.
Might be a little bit subjective,but I consider Dr.Zippe as the most important
contributor to centrifuge technology .


  #47  
Old January 17th 04, 12:39 PM
Keith Willshaw
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"Denyav" wrote in message
...
Houtermans and von Ardenne.
Not to mention that the German nuclear program was crippled severely by
the lack of heavy water, thanks to sabotage efforts of Thor Heyerdahl
(later famous for his Kon-Tiki raft showing the Egyptians could have
sailed to the Americas)


1) In spite of Allied bombings and efforts or Norwegian resistance Germans
transferred enough Heavy water to Germany over land route.
2)In summer of 44 Germans started to use graffit moderation and heavy

water
moderation was put to back burner.


All the reactors captured used heavy water moderation, including those
built in 1945

http://www.haigerloch.de/stadt/kelle...sch/EVERSU.HTM

Keith


  #48  
Old January 17th 04, 12:50 PM
Keith Willshaw
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"Denyav" wrote in message
...
Yes he did. His experimental reactor at Stadtilm was a
heavy water moderated design and his job tiltles included
Commissioner for Norwegian HeavyWater Production


He was the scientific leader of Heavy water production in Norway and

according
to his own testimony enough amounts of Heavy water arrived in Germany in
Aug/Sep 44 from Norway.


For his use but half was allocated to Heisenberg

By the time the Heavy water from Norway arrived,it was no longer needed.


Then why ship it when shipping is critically short ?

He
failed, the reactor never achieved criticallity, ironically


Quite so.

however they did accidentally discover that they got
greater neutron miltiplication amongst the graphite blocks
sourrounding the reactor than with the uranium assembly
in the reactor itself. At last in Marc
1945 they had
stumbled on the fact that graphite could be used as a
moderator, far too late to use that


Strange,von Ardenne team reported as early as in Sep.42 that graphite

could be
used as moderator alternative!.


But then concluded it could not after test with impure material

No such seizure was made and the maximum production during the
war was around 140 kg per month


Yeah right,no such seizure ever made and also Saddam was about to build a
nuclear arsenal,German scientists forgat in 1945 what they knew in 1941,NV
Patrol boats attacked USS Maddox,Communists burned down Reichstag etc,etc.


Evasion noted

No their period of original work came after the war when they
worked in the Soviet nuclear program.


No they were two of three most important scientists of German nuclear

effort.
Guess what who has been ordered to built Soviet Bomb in Aug.45 by the

Beria,A
soviet scientists or von Ardenne?.


Academician I.V. Kurchatov

(Obviously NKVD boss knew something about German bomb and its creators)
von Ardenne,knowing that he could never see Germany again if he accepted
Berias'offer and built a bomb for SU,diplomaticaly argued that soviet
scientists not germans should have leading role (federfuehrung) in making

of
the soviet bomb,and germans should support them.That the reason why the

soviet
bomb was built under sobiet management.


Hardly, there were hired hands working on designs fed
to them from Soviet agents at Los Alamos

BTW ,Houtermans was a devoted Communist and anti-Nazi activist,he was in

Soviet
Union before WWII and was put into jail during Stalins cleansing campaign.
When he (a German citizen) was arrested by Stalins henchmen,British gov't
protested and requested his immediate release,British protest was

accompanied
by a threat of suspending commercial relations with SU.
After British protest he was released and went back to Germany,or more
precisely to Gestapo HQ.
Have you any idea why British gov't acted so for a German citizen and

communist
jailed in Soviet Union?,


This is fiction. Houtermans married physicist Charlotte Riefenstahl in
August 1931, he left Germany in 1933 at the insistent request of Charlotte,
and worked in Great Britain, near Cambridge. But in 1935, he agreed to a
proposal of Alexander Weissberg, a Russian communist childhood friend,
for an appointment at the Institute of Physics of Kharkhov, USSR

His wife and their two small children managed to escape and get to the
United States. In prison, Houtermans was tortured until he confessed
to be a "trotskyist plotter" and a German spy, then he was imprisoned in
Moscow.

However, after the Hitler-Stalin pact of August 1939, he was handed over to
Gestapo by NKVD and imprisoned in Berlin in May 1940. He was discharged in
August 1940 thanks to Max von Laue, who found a job for him at the
industrial
lab of Manfred von Arden (in November 1940).

Actually the only German researcher who could have produced
a bomb was Paul Harteck who attempted to develop the
centrifuge enrichment process with virtually no official
backing.


Surely Harteck is one of founders of centrifuge enrichment technology and

his
published studies are among thr best ,but in centrifuge technology Germany

was
decades ahead of the rest of the world,there were many talents in this

field
Zippe and Steenbeck for example.
Might be a little bit subjective,but I consider Dr.Zippe as the most

important
contributor to centrifuge technology .

Perhaps but their work was given no priority by the Nazis
and failed to enrich more than a few grams of material.

Keith


  #49  
Old January 17th 04, 05:49 PM
running with scissors
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Charles Gray wrote in message . ..
had actually put a U.S. style R&D system in place during WWII, and
instead of coming up with (however pretty they look on paper) dozens
of designs that never made it beyond wind tunnal designs and focused
on say two or three fighter designs.
For example, if they'd pushed through the first jet fighter design
in 1940 (I forget what it was called), and focused on incremental
improvmeents instead of always running to the next design.

Would this have had a major impact on WWII, or just drawn it out by
a few months?



what if the British Air Ministry had listened to Frank Whittle's
proposal for the jet engine when he presented it to them before 1932
 




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