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Hawk Wind



 
 
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  #41  
Old May 5th 21, 08:55 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jax
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Posts: 9
Default Hawk Wind

I was referring to Climb mode, it is very possible that the sound reflects the blue ball reading in cruise, I never switch always use climb mode so I can't confirm.


On Wednesday, 5 May 2021 at 16:24:24 UTC+10, Christoph Barniske wrote:
Marc Förderer once told me that in SC mode, the audio signal reflects the airmass indicator (blue ball). He recommended to set the airmass mixer to 100% inertial, airmass filter to 3.4s and SC filter to 0.

Christoph
Aldo Cernezzi schrieb am Mittwoch, 5. Mai 2021 um 00:38:35 UTC+2:
Il giorno martedì 4 maggio 2021 alle 10:13:25 UTC+2 Jax ha scritto:

The people that only listen to the vario (which is what we do 99% of the time) and think the Airglide vario is nothing special are perfectly correct. The sound is the black triangle, often I would prefer it to be on the blue ball but sadly we can't change it.

That's a very interesting observation. Thanks!

Aldo

  #42  
Old May 5th 21, 05:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Moshe Braner
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Posts: 114
Default Hawk Wind

On 5/4/2021 1:22 AM, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, May 2, 2021 at 10:53:58 PM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Sunday, 2 May 2021 at 08:58:35 UTC+3, Matthew Scutter wrote:
Would you expect it to function meaningfully differently in the flatlands? Circling wind should work just fine in a homogenous atmosphere, so functioning the same would be ideal.

Matthew, this is what we thought of wind for last 100 years. Now that we can measure it accurately with 1Hz sampling rate, it has proven to anything but homogenous. Thermal does not move with wind (because lower momentum of mass flow of air from surface, millions of kg/minute). Thermal creates plume of rising air, but also a plume of slower moving air. When you measure wind while thermalling, you are measuring this. When leaving thermal, you will fly into stronger wind. Ever had that feeling on headwind final glide that glider just does not want to stay on glide path unless you find lift? You flew into stronger headwind without knowing it. When arriving under cloud, you will most likely fly into lower wind area before flying into thermal. This can be used to your advantage. No need to make those searching turns yet unless the wind calmed down first.
Similarly I would be surprised if there was improvement in variometer function from an existing well-compensated setup. All I would wish for additionally from my existing variometer is that it would read accurately in the first second of the pullup into a thermal.

Inertial variometer does exactly this, gives a quantitative reading of the gust you feel in your seat. You need to get a used Air GlideS someday.


If this were the case then I would immediately see a stronger wind, as measured by the difference between true airspeed and GPS ground speed, upon leaving the thermal. I do not see this, ever. And I am monitoring it on virtually every thermal. This way of measuring wind does only give me the headwind component, but I get it in real time. If I want to check the direction I can turn until the difference is maximized. This only takes a few seconds. Most of the time I don't need to do this.

I intend to try out Hawk for a trial and see what difference it makes.

Tom


Not quite about Hawk Wind, but the same is possible with XCsoar or
Tophat: there is an infobox available that shows IAS, but it is hidden:
it is not included in the short list that appears when you tap the
settings icon for an infobox. You need to get several levels deep
inside the system settings designing the screen(s) to get the full list.
Now that I found it, I added it to my display. This allows me to
double-check the "component wind" (head or tail) by comparing the IAS
displayed there with what is displayed on my ASI. Note: yes, I wrote
IAS not TAS. This is a flight computer with no connection to the pitot
system. The estimated IAS displayed in that infobox is computed based
on the GPS ground speed, the estimated wind (resulting in TAS), and the
air density (approximated based on the altitude). If it differs from
the ASI reading, that shows that the true wind differs from the
estimated wind. E.g., if the infobox says 60 knots and the ASI says 65
knots that means there are 5 more knots of headwind (or less tailwind)
than the computer's estimate of the wind.

  #43  
Old May 5th 21, 09:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Posts: 668
Default Hawk Wind

On Wednesday, 5 May 2021 at 01:35:20 UTC+3, Aldo Cernezzi wrote:

When flying in the mountains, instant wind vector display is an absolute advantage. In the flatland, an averaged calculation may be satisfactory. I used to be a big Zander fan (magnetic compass interface, almost completely free from the unsolvable problems created by flux-gate compasses). Now I'm happy to see a new generation of promising devices.


Aldo Cernezzi
www.voloavela.it


The vector math of calculating instant wind from TAS/GS difference with corresponding flight track is pretty simple. What I don't understand is how to do this unless you have consecutive wind vectors from different directions.. Thus Hawk cannot update wind reading unless glider is in circling flight. Yes there is no problems with compass, but there is no way of determining wind by flying to one direction.
  #44  
Old May 5th 21, 10:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,939
Default Hawk Wind

On 5/5/2021 1:38 PM, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, 5 May 2021 at 01:35:20 UTC+3, Aldo Cernezzi wrote:

When flying in the mountains, instant wind vector display is an absolute advantage. In the flatland, an averaged calculation may be satisfactory. I used to be a big Zander fan (magnetic compass interface, almost completely free from the unsolvable problems created by flux-gate compasses). Now I'm happy to see a new generation of promising devices.


Aldo Cernezzi
www.voloavela.it


The vector math of calculating instant wind from TAS/GS difference with corresponding flight track is pretty simple. What I don't understand is how to do this unless you have consecutive wind vectors from different directions. Thus Hawk cannot update wind reading unless glider is in circling flight. Yes there is no problems with compass, but there is no way of determining wind by flying to one direction.


Have you read their paper? They are certain they can determine wind without
circling or a compass. I don't pretend to understand the paper, but this portion
from the paper describes how it might be possible:

"The mathematical system theory also answers the question under what conditions
a wind estimation is possible. In the case of a borderline case of an exact
straight flight movement and completely calm air, this is not possible. All
triangles are identical. We (Huang and Meyr) could show, however, that the
random changes in the air movement are sufficient to make the system
"observable.” "

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #45  
Old May 5th 21, 11:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andrzej Kobus
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Posts: 585
Default Hawk Wind

On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 4:38:38 PM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, 5 May 2021 at 01:35:20 UTC+3, Aldo Cernezzi wrote:

When flying in the mountains, instant wind vector display is an absolute advantage. In the flatland, an averaged calculation may be satisfactory. I used to be a big Zander fan (magnetic compass interface, almost completely free from the unsolvable problems created by flux-gate compasses). Now I'm happy to see a new generation of promising devices.


Aldo Cernezzi
www.voloavela.it

The vector math of calculating instant wind from TAS/GS difference with corresponding flight track is pretty simple. What I don't understand is how to do this unless you have consecutive wind vectors from different directions. Thus Hawk cannot update wind reading unless glider is in circling flight. Yes there is no problems with compass, but there is no way of determining wind by flying to one direction.


Have you heard of "Growth mindset"? I think the appropriate thing to say would have been that you would love to learn how that was achieved, just in case you might be wrong, especially if some very smart people said that they had done it.
  #46  
Old May 6th 21, 06:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Posts: 668
Default Hawk Wind

On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 00:15:44 UTC+3, Eric Greenwell wrote:
"The mathematical system theory also answers the question under what conditions
a wind estimation is possible. In the case of a borderline case of an exact
straight flight movement and completely calm air, this is not possible. All
triangles are identical. We (Huang and Meyr) could show, however, that the
random changes in the air movement are sufficient to make the system
"observable.” "
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


For wind vector you need two TAS-GS difference/track vectors. If they are identical (same direction of flight), you have no wind solution (as stated in paper). Optimum would be two vectors with 90 degrees difference, and measured in extremely short duration (this is how Oudie "live wind" tries to do it, though I haven't got it working). This would give an ok solution in circling flight, but at the same time the angular speed while circling is not very high, so sensing wind vector at different parts of thermal is rather slow (on steep turn with AIR Glide S gives you basically 20-25 separate wind measurements with 1 sec average). In straight flight Hawk is relying on miniscule differences in flight track. Instead of two wind vector components with 90 degree difference in direction they have vectors that have only few degrees difference on average. I would love to see someone comparing wind indications of Hawk and Glide S someday.
  #47  
Old May 6th 21, 09:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Galloway[_2_]
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Posts: 58
Default Hawk Wind

On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 06:48:03 UTC+1, krasw wrote:
On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 00:15:44 UTC+3, Eric Greenwell wrote:
"The mathematical system theory also answers the question under what conditions
a wind estimation is possible. In the case of a borderline case of an exact
straight flight movement and completely calm air, this is not possible. All
triangles are identical. We (Huang and Meyr) could show, however, that the
random changes in the air movement are sufficient to make the system
"observable.” "
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

For wind vector you need two TAS-GS difference/track vectors. If they are identical (same direction of flight), you have no wind solution (as stated in paper). Optimum would be two vectors with 90 degrees difference, and measured in extremely short duration (this is how Oudie "live wind" tries to do it, though I haven't got it working). This would give an ok solution in circling flight, but at the same time the angular speed while circling is not very high, so sensing wind vector at different parts of thermal is rather slow (on steep turn with AIR Glide S gives you basically 20-25 separate wind measurements with 1 sec average). In straight flight Hawk is relying on miniscule differences in flight track. Instead of two wind vector components with 90 degree difference in direction they have vectors that have only few degrees difference on average. I would love to see someone comparing wind indications of Hawk and Glide S someday.


Krasw, if you study the paper you will see that your end point is the author's start question i.e. how can you possibly estimate 3D "wind" at high frequency without heading data input from a magnetometer?
  #48  
Old May 6th 21, 04:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Posts: 1,134
Default Hawk Wind

The paper is fairly circumspect on the details of what they are doing. Their claim that this hasn't been done before seems disingenuous, given that the Air Vario had been out for a number of years producing (or claiming to produce) a similar result. Air's efforts are described in a university published paper from some years ago. Their methods appear to be similar. But I am glad that someone has taken up the challenge that Air Avionics has now dropped. Whether it is better or worse will require installing both in the panel and flying for awhile. The advantages they expound of knowing the true wind in real time are already well known to anyone with an Air Display S who has paid attention to it.
On Thursday, May 6, 2021 at 1:27:24 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 06:48:03 UTC+1, krasw wrote:
On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 00:15:44 UTC+3, Eric Greenwell wrote:
"The mathematical system theory also answers the question under what conditions
a wind estimation is possible. In the case of a borderline case of an exact
straight flight movement and completely calm air, this is not possible. All
triangles are identical. We (Huang and Meyr) could show, however, that the
random changes in the air movement are sufficient to make the system
"observable.” "
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

For wind vector you need two TAS-GS difference/track vectors. If they are identical (same direction of flight), you have no wind solution (as stated in paper). Optimum would be two vectors with 90 degrees difference, and measured in extremely short duration (this is how Oudie "live wind" tries to do it, though I haven't got it working). This would give an ok solution in circling flight, but at the same time the angular speed while circling is not very high, so sensing wind vector at different parts of thermal is rather slow (on steep turn with AIR Glide S gives you basically 20-25 separate wind measurements with 1 sec average). In straight flight Hawk is relying on miniscule differences in flight track. Instead of two wind vector components with 90 degree difference in direction they have vectors that have only few degrees difference on average. I would love to see someone comparing wind indications of Hawk and Glide S someday.

Krasw, if you study the paper you will see that your end point is the author's start question i.e. how can you possibly estimate 3D "wind" at high frequency without heading data input from a magnetometer?

  #49  
Old May 6th 21, 06:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Galloway[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 58
Default Hawk Wind

On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 16:54:14 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
The paper is fairly circumspect on the details of what they are doing. Their claim that this hasn't been done before seems disingenuous, given that the Air Vario had been out for a number of years producing (or claiming to produce) a similar result. Air's efforts are described in a university published paper from some years ago. Their methods appear to be similar. But I am glad that someone has taken up the challenge that Air Avionics has now dropped. Whether it is better or worse will require installing both in the panel and flying for awhile. The advantages they expound of knowing the true wind in real time are already well known to anyone with an Air Display S who has paid attention to it.
On Thursday, May 6, 2021 at 1:27:24 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 06:48:03 UTC+1, krasw wrote:
On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 00:15:44 UTC+3, Eric Greenwell wrote:
"The mathematical system theory also answers the question under what conditions
a wind estimation is possible. In the case of a borderline case of an exact
straight flight movement and completely calm air, this is not possible. All
triangles are identical. We (Huang and Meyr) could show, however, that the
random changes in the air movement are sufficient to make the system
"observable.” "
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
For wind vector you need two TAS-GS difference/track vectors. If they are identical (same direction of flight), you have no wind solution (as stated in paper). Optimum would be two vectors with 90 degrees difference, and measured in extremely short duration (this is how Oudie "live wind" tries to do it, though I haven't got it working). This would give an ok solution in circling flight, but at the same time the angular speed while circling is not very high, so sensing wind vector at different parts of thermal is rather slow (on steep turn with AIR Glide S gives you basically 20-25 separate wind measurements with 1 sec average). In straight flight Hawk is relying on miniscule differences in flight track. Instead of two wind vector components with 90 degree difference in direction they have vectors that have only few degrees difference on average. I would love to see someone comparing wind indications of Hawk and Glide S someday.

Krasw, if you study the paper you will see that your end point is the author's start question i.e. how can you possibly estimate 3D "wind" at high frequency without heading data input from a magnetometer?


The Air Avionics wind and blue ball netto calculations are dependent on data from an accurately reading magnetometer - and installing one of those free from EM fields is its Achilles' heel, and also the reason I never got one when they were still on sale So, to my mind the Hawk method is definitely new - although I am more interesting in finding out whether it works rather than who did what first.

I thought the paper contained a lot detail on the concept and implementation including the statement:

"Mathematical system theory also answers the question under which conditions wind estimation is possible. In the limiting case of an exactly straight-line flight motion and perfectly calm air, this is not possible. All triangles are identical. However, we could show (Huang und Meyr) that the random changes in the airmass movement are sufficient to make the system "observable"."

From this, if true, one might infer that what would be to the pilot "miniscule differences in flight track" would actually yield plenty data for the system to calculate wind.
  #50  
Old May 6th 21, 06:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Posts: 1,134
Default Hawk Wind

Air Avionics have been equally circumspect on exactly what they do, and how much each of the 9 axis MEMs sensors contribute to that. Using the magnetometer has some advantages, as the limiting case of straight line flight in steady flow can still produce a wind calculation, also it makes inherent an AHRS which is not possible without it. I'd agree that the result is the most important, I'd pop one in the panel and find out but they are a bit pricey as an impulse purchase - costing somewhat more than an Air Avionics did when they were still sold.
On Thursday, May 6, 2021 at 10:04:42 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 16:54:14 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
The paper is fairly circumspect on the details of what they are doing. Their claim that this hasn't been done before seems disingenuous, given that the Air Vario had been out for a number of years producing (or claiming to produce) a similar result. Air's efforts are described in a university published paper from some years ago. Their methods appear to be similar. But I am glad that someone has taken up the challenge that Air Avionics has now dropped. Whether it is better or worse will require installing both in the panel and flying for awhile. The advantages they expound of knowing the true wind in real time are already well known to anyone with an Air Display S who has paid attention to it.
On Thursday, May 6, 2021 at 1:27:24 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 06:48:03 UTC+1, krasw wrote:
On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 00:15:44 UTC+3, Eric Greenwell wrote:
"The mathematical system theory also answers the question under what conditions
a wind estimation is possible. In the case of a borderline case of an exact
straight flight movement and completely calm air, this is not possible. All
triangles are identical. We (Huang and Meyr) could show, however, that the
random changes in the air movement are sufficient to make the system
"observable.” "
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
For wind vector you need two TAS-GS difference/track vectors. If they are identical (same direction of flight), you have no wind solution (as stated in paper). Optimum would be two vectors with 90 degrees difference, and measured in extremely short duration (this is how Oudie "live wind" tries to do it, though I haven't got it working). This would give an ok solution in circling flight, but at the same time the angular speed while circling is not very high, so sensing wind vector at different parts of thermal is rather slow (on steep turn with AIR Glide S gives you basically 20-25 separate wind measurements with 1 sec average). In straight flight Hawk is relying on miniscule differences in flight track. Instead of two wind vector components with 90 degree difference in direction they have vectors that have only few degrees difference on average. I would love to see someone comparing wind indications of Hawk and Glide S someday.
Krasw, if you study the paper you will see that your end point is the author's start question i.e. how can you possibly estimate 3D "wind" at high frequency without heading data input from a magnetometer?

The Air Avionics wind and blue ball netto calculations are dependent on data from an accurately reading magnetometer - and installing one of those free from EM fields is its Achilles' heel, and also the reason I never got one when they were still on sale So, to my mind the Hawk method is definitely new - although I am more interesting in finding out whether it works rather than who did what first.

I thought the paper contained a lot detail on the concept and implementation including the statement:

"Mathematical system theory also answers the question under which conditions wind estimation is possible. In the limiting case of an exactly straight-line flight motion and perfectly calm air, this is not possible. All triangles are identical. However, we could show (Huang und Meyr) that the random changes in the airmass movement are sufficient to make the system "observable"."

From this, if true, one might infer that what would be to the pilot "miniscule differences in flight track" would actually yield plenty data for the system to calculate wind.

 




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