Future Club Training Gliders

On Nov 5, 8:58*am, Berry wrote:

About the only thing keeping the ASK-7 and -13's from being the best
trainers for the money is that their cockpits were not designed for the
"modern" physique.

Well, I have a "modern" physique (love that euphemism!), and I fit in
our K-13 just fine. The back seat of a 2-33, OTOH, is painful.

I totally agree that the K-13 is a great primary trainer. It suffers,
in the US at least, from being made from first-generation composites
(i.e. wood and fabric), which is absurd in most parts of the US where
it will outlast it's pilots!

And, as the original poster mentioned, requires a bit of conversion
when moving up to more slippery glass.

Perhaps we can import a bunch of K-13s from Europe to replace our
grounded Blanik L-13s?

Maybe we should convince someone to put the 2-32 back in production -
now there is a glider with room for the well fed pilot &
passenger(s)! And it spins!

Kirk
66

"noel.wade" wrote:
On Sep 15, 10:14*am, "Surfer!" wrote:

But since the Schweizer seems to be the training ship of choice in
most U
S
clubs that shouldn't be a surprise. *It's certainly not (IMHO) an
endorsement of them.

I couldn't agree more! As a "younger" glider pilot myself (29 when I
started), let me make a few assertions:

1) Do you think you can get *ANY* young person interested in soaring
if what they see is a 2-33? After playing any modern computer game?
After watching movies like "The Fast and the Furious"? The 2-33 looks
like a dog and flies slowly.

I started lessons when I was 52. I didn't have a problem with the club's
2-33 because it is possible I'm not a shallow youth anymore. ;-)

More seriously, I'm doubtful that anyone (young or old) would even consider
gliders in any way, shape, or form if they were motivated by speed.

If the argument had any validity, it could be turned into a counter
argument that claims 2-33's would winnow out those who have not yet matured
- and lack of maturity leads to poor aeronautical decision making, leading
in turn to death, destruction, and the collapse of civilization - all
because too many young whipper snappers got themselves killed flying like
crazed kids. And all for lack of 2-33's to teach them some humility! :-)

On Nov 5, 1:44*pm, Jim Logajan wrote:
"noel.wade" wrote:
On Sep 15, 10:14 am, "Surfer!" wrote:

But since the Schweizer seems to be the training ship of choice in
most U
S
clubs that shouldn't be a surprise. It's certainly not (IMHO) an
endorsement of them.

I couldn't agree more! *As a "younger" glider pilot myself (29 when I
started), let me make a few assertions:

1) Do you think you can get *ANY* young person interested in soaring
if what they see is a 2-33? After playing any modern computer game?
After watching movies like "The Fast and the Furious"? *The 2-33 looks
like a dog and flies slowly.

I started lessons when I was 52. I didn't have a problem with the club's
2-33 because it is possible I'm not a shallow youth anymore. ;-)

More seriously, I'm doubtful that anyone (young or old) would even consider
gliders in any way, shape, or form if they were motivated by speed.

If the argument had any validity, it could be turned into a counter
argument that claims 2-33's would winnow out those who have not yet matured
- and lack of maturity leads to poor aeronautical decision making, leading
in turn to death, destruction, and the collapse of civilization - all
because too many young whipper snappers got themselves killed flying like
crazed kids. And all for lack of 2-33's to teach them some humility! *:-)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was 47 when I took my first glider lesson. All my flying (a lot! I
was a terribly slow learner!) up to my check ride was in a 2-33. After
I got my ticket, I flew the 1-26 a bit, but took several training
flights in the G103. Yes, flying the big Grob is different from flying
the 2-33, but that's why they put an instructor in the back seat for
several flights in the Grob. I think the instructors make more
difference than the glider.

On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 15:44:18 -0500, Jim Logajan wrote:

"noel.wade" wrote:
On Sep 15, 10:14Â*am, "Surfer!" wrote:

But since the Schweizer seems to be the training ship of choice in
most U
S
clubs that shouldn't be a surprise. Â*It's certainly not (IMHO) an
endorsement of them.

I couldn't agree more! As a "younger" glider pilot myself (29 when I
started), let me make a few assertions:

1) Do you think you can get *ANY* young person interested in soaring if
what they see is a 2-33? After playing any modern computer game? After
watching movies like "The Fast and the Furious"? The 2-33 looks like a
dog and flies slowly.

I started lessons when I was 52. I didn't have a problem with the club's
2-33 because it is possible I'm not a shallow youth anymore. ;-)

I started learning when I was 54, and that was certainly thanks to a ride
in an ASK-21. I'd had a couple of trial flights 8-10 years previously in
an ASK-13, but though it was a nice experience it didn't inspire me to
take up gliding. However, and I don't know why, that flight in an ASK-21
in the fall of '99 at Front Royale set the hook and I joined Cambridge GC
in the UK at the start of the 2000 season, picking them for no better
reason than they were the only local club with a glass training fleet. As
it happened I couldn't have chosen better given the club's strong xc
culture. This became apparent at the 2001 Regionals when I got my first
cross-country ride in the club's G103: I had a ring-side seat as my P1
won the day on handicap.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Nov 5, 10:02*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 15:44:18 -0500, Jim Logajan wrote:
"noel.wade" wrote:
On Sep 15, 10:14*am, "Surfer!" wrote:

But since the Schweizer seems to be the training ship of choice in
most U
S
clubs that shouldn't be a surprise. *It's certainly not (IMHO) an
endorsement of them.

I couldn't agree more! *As a "younger" glider pilot myself (29 when I
started), let me make a few assertions:

1) Do you think you can get *ANY* young person interested in soaring if
what they see is a 2-33? After playing any modern computer game? After
watching movies like "The Fast and the Furious"? *The 2-33 looks like a
dog and flies slowly.

I started lessons when I was 52. I didn't have a problem with the club's
2-33 because it is possible I'm not a shallow youth anymore. ;-)

I started learning when I was 54, and that was certainly thanks to a ride
in an ASK-21. I'd had a couple of trial flights 8-10 years previously in
an ASK-13, but though it was a nice experience it didn't inspire me to
take up gliding. However, and I don't know why, that flight in an ASK-21
in the fall of '99 at Front Royale set the hook and I joined Cambridge GC
in the UK at the start of the 2000 season, picking them for no better
reason than they were the only local club with a glass training fleet. As
it happened I couldn't have chosen better given the club's strong xc
culture. This became apparent at the 2001 Regionals when I got my first
cross-country ride in the club's G103: I had a ring-side seat as my P1
won the day on handicap.

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I started learning to glide in 1981 at the age of 35 in K13s. I went
solo on my 40th flight within three months of starting, and got an
instructor rating in 1985. However I felt that K13s with their wooden
skids looked a bit antique even back then. Our club still has two of
the same K13s as we had back then, plus seven newer ones. Most of them
have had nose wheel conversions, which makes them look fractionally
more modern, but not exactly inspiring. Tall people have difficulty in
fitting into the front seat. Unfortunately no manufacturer has yet
come up with a decent glass 2-seater trainer that ticks all the boxes
that a K13 can.

On 11/5/2010 4:02 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 15:44:18 -0500, Jim Logajan wrote:

wrote:

Snip...

1) Do you think you can get *ANY* young person interested in soaring if
what they see is a 2-33? After playing any modern computer game? After
watching movies like "The Fast and the Furious"? The 2-33 looks like a
dog and flies slowly.

I started lessons when I was 52. I didn't have a problem with the club's
2-33 because it is possible I'm not a shallow youth anymore. ;-)

I started learning when I was 54, and that was certainly thanks to a ride
in an ASK-21. I'd had a couple of trial flights 8-10 years previously in
an ASK-13, but though it was a nice experience it didn't inspire me to
take up gliding. However, and I don't know why, that flight in an ASK-21
in the fall of '99 at Front Royale set the hook and I joined Cambridge GC
in the UK at the start of the 2000 season, picking them for no better
reason than they were the only local club with a glass training fleet. As
it happened I couldn't have chosen better given the club's strong xc
culture. This became apparent at the 2001 Regionals when I got my first
cross-country ride in the club's G103: I had a ring-side seat as my P1
won the day on handicap.


OK, I'm convinced. Having as many as possible intro gliders into soaring is
better than having fewer...regardless of WHAT the intro gliders look like!

Bob - options are good - W.

P.S. Now I'm ready to be convinced it makes economic sense within our
non-growing sport to junk perfectly functional sailplanes - i.e. sailplanes
that meet *some* (or they'd've been retired already) real club/commercial
operator needs - in favor of replacements carrying considerably higher
up-front replacement/ongoing insurance costs, just because the former were
designed before 'ergonomics' gained favor!

I started learning when I was 54, and that was certainly thanks to a ride
in an ASK-21. I'd had a couple of trial flights 8-10 years previously in
an ASK-13, but though it was a nice experience it didn't inspire me to
take up gliding. However, and I don't know why, that flight in an ASK-21
in the fall of '99 at Front Royale set the hook and I joined Cambridge GC
in the UK at the start of the 2000 season, picking them for no better
reason than they were the only local club with a glass training fleet.

Just met a fellow at a garage sale where I was blabbering about
gliders, and this guy tells me his story of how he had seen beautiful
gliders for years here and there in movies (Thomas Crown remake?) and
TV specials and such and was really intrigued by them, so much so that
he looked up a close by operation and went to Vacaville CA sometime
in the 90's (no longer in operation...) to finally treat himself and
possibly take it up. He got to the field and was pretty exited, and
made arrangements with the folks there. Then him and his pilot walked
out the their plane. They were walking past all these gorgeous glass
ships that were fueling his fancy -and kept going past them, to what
by his description of what he remembered could only have been a 2-33.
His heart sank, he lost his inspiration as well as his confidence;
enough so that he didn't go through with the flight and lost the spark
of interest.

The interesting thing about this story to me, was how he told it to me
on his own volition, out of the complete blue. I was only talking
about positive aspects of gliding and my own joys etc with it. It was
so very random for him to tell me that, which for me further
reinforces my thoughts about the influence visual dynamics has on
mental dynamics... I've seen other people be this guy, and frankly I
felt the same way when we walked past the 21 and the 103, to a lonely
2-33 on it's own pad, which made it clear what plane we were going to
be using for flight training -and which ones we were not. Yeah I
stuck with it, but it I would be lying if I said I wasn't crestfallen
when I went for the same walk...

-Paul

On 11/6/2010 2:35 PM, Bob Whelan wrote:
On 11/5/2010 4:02 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 15:44:18 -0500, Jim Logajan wrote:

wrote:

Snip...

1) Do you think you can get *ANY* young person interested in
soaring if
what they see is a 2-33? After playing any modern computer game? After
watching movies like "The Fast and the Furious"? The 2-33 looks
like a
dog and flies slowly.

I started lessons when I was 52. I didn't have a problem with the
club's
2-33 because it is possible I'm not a shallow youth anymore. ;-)

I started learning when I was 54, and that was certainly thanks to a
ride
in an ASK-21. I'd had a couple of trial flights 8-10 years previously in
an ASK-13, but though it was a nice experience it didn't inspire me to
take up gliding. However, and I don't know why, that flight in an ASK-21
in the fall of '99 at Front Royale set the hook and I joined
Cambridge GC
in the UK at the start of the 2000 season, picking them for no better
reason than they were the only local club with a glass training
fleet. As
it happened I couldn't have chosen better given the club's strong xc
culture. This became apparent at the 2001 Regionals when I got my first
cross-country ride in the club's G103: I had a ring-side seat as my P1
won the day on handicap.


OK, I'm convinced. Having as many as possible intro gliders into
soaring is better than having fewer...regardless of WHAT the intro
gliders look like!

Bob - options are good - W.

P.S. Now I'm ready to be convinced it makes economic sense within our
non-growing sport to junk perfectly functional sailplanes - i.e.
sailplanes that meet *some* (or they'd've been retired already) real
club/commercial operator needs - in favor of replacements carrying
considerably higher up-front replacement/ongoing insurance costs, just
because the former were designed before 'ergonomics' gained favor!

Our club had an ASK 13; later, it had a Blanik L13. An ASK 21 might have
helped us get a few more members, but what we really needed was a
tricycle gear towplane! Over the years, it got harder and harder to find
pilots with enough tail dragger time to fly the tow plane. So, towards
the end of club's existence, the club glider, the private gliders, and
the tow plane often sat on the ground because we couldn't find a tow
pilot for the day.

If we'd had a trike gear airplane, like the 150 hp Cessna 150 we
rejected in favor of the Citabria when we bought our tow plane, we
would've had pilots fighting for the chance to do tows.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

At 03:49 07 November 2010, sisu1a wrote:

They were walking past all these gorgeous glass
ships that were fueling his fancy -and kept going past them, to what
by his description of what he remembered could only have been a 2-33.
His heart sank, he lost his inspiration as well as his confidence;
enough so that he didn't go through with the flight and lost the spark
of interest.

Gotta feel sorry for somebody with so little imagination. I transitioned
from power to gliders in 1975, and trained almost exclusively in 2-33s
(and the occasional Blanik). Perhaps it was different, already being a
pilot, but the first revelation of what even a ratty old 2-33 could do in
the air was amazing. So it didn't look all that great, it had those big,
big wings. And when you're inside the heap, it doesn't look so bad.
Like the man said,

My face, I don't mind it,
For I am behind it.
It's the people in front whom I jar.

Jim Beckman

On Nov 7, 5:52*am, Jim Beckman wrote:

Gotta feel sorry for somebody with so little imagination. *I transitioned
from power to gliders in 1975, and trained almost exclusively in 2-33s
(and the occasional Blanik). *Perhaps it was different, already being a
pilot, but the first revelation of what even a ratty old 2-33 could do in
the air was amazing. *So it didn't look all that great, it had those big,
big wings. *And when you're inside the heap, it doesn't look so bad.


As a kid 5 decades ago, I asked my Dad for a new Schwinn 10 speed
bicycle for Christmas.
I got a balloon tire hand-me-down instead. I fixed it up, rode far
and wide on it and I was very happy.
In high school I longed for a 1967 Porsche, but got a 1956 Volkswagen.
Sure had fun in that VW back seat at the drive-in movies.
Later I saw a new Datsun 240Z, but settled for a Mercury Capri.
Sure had a lot of fun in it cruising the Florida Keys.
In 1968 I soloed a 2-33 at the Schweizer school in Elmira, NY.
Ran the ridge at Harris Hill. Sure had fun and I'll never forget that
day.

My old bike, the '56 Volkswagen, the 2-33; just means to an end to be
one with the machine, one with the world.

Turning away from soaring because of how the glider looks just doesn't
seem valid to me, but that's just me.
I don't care to argue about it. Nobody is wrong. If you can afford to
buy a nice lookin' glider for your club, then buy it for them.

Then again, if you younger folks want to fly something "pretty" down
in southwest Texas . . . you know where I am.

Burt
Marfa Gliders Soaring Center
ASK-13, DG-1000T, Blanik L-23 (for sale, soon to be replaced by a new
ASK-21.)

P.S. By the way, I'd love to find a really nice Schweizer 2-22 -- now
THAT is a cool lookin' glider! A Grunau Baby would be amazing to own!
Talk about "SOUL" -- those old, ugly gliders (and for that matter the
older gals) have it!

Sing Along (funky style): "It's not what you look like when you're
doin' what you're doin'. It's what you're doin', when you're doin',
what you look like you're doin'."
"Express Yourself" - Charles Wright and the Watts 103rd Street Rhythm
Band (1970, and sounds fine on something called a "vinyl record".)