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#81
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Cherokee Six-260 = 260 HP, becomes 14.4 GPH, actual is about 14.0
Six-300 = 300 HP, becomes 16.6 GPH, actual is about 17.0 A Six-260 will get you close on everything except the speed. My 260 gets 125-130 kts, price is in the ball park. I have about a 1550 lb useful load, which with full tanks (84 gal), leaves me a few pounds over 1000 lbs for my wife, 4 (soon to be 5) kids, bags and the dog with full tanks. Range is about 600 nm at 75% with reserves. If you go by the 84 gal capacity, that is 6 hrs, which at 125 kts is 750nm. Fact is, most linemen won't get the full 84 gals in there, and climb eats gas at about 23 GPH. The later models have I think a 102 gallon capacity, but they are also a couple hundred pounds heavier with no increase in max gross. A lance will get you close on speed, but may be expensive to insure and you have quite a bit more weight in the folding gear. The 17 GPH burn n the 300 HP shortens the range considerably for a relatively small speed increase. Aaron Coolidge wrote: -- --Ray Andraka, P.E. President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc. 401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950 http://www.andraka.com "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, 1759 |
#82
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I find the stated performance completely believable particularly since the
stock airplane can reach 177kts. Don't get hung up on the 180kts though it does not represent cruise speed. It was achieved at a power setting that is unlikely to result in a long life for the engine. My first airplane was a Turbo Lance with the Turboplus intercooler and all availible speed mods. Top speed was in the low 190s. Cruise was about 170kts at 75% in the mid teens. Mike MU-2 "O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message ... The Turbo Arrow III (PA-28R-201T) has a Turboplus intercooler. the following quote has been passed along to me as being in the TurboPlus owners manual: "The results of the FAA Certification flight, flown by FAA pilots on September 12, 1983 are as follows: Take off wt. Max. gross weight Climb speed 97 kts. IAS (best rate) OAT 25 degrees above standard Power during climb to 16,000 feet 200 H.P Rate of climb 900 FPM (avg.) Fuel flow Full rich Highest oil temp 201 F (240 F max) Highest CHT 417 F (460 F max) TAS 180 kts. (30" @ 2500 RPM)" (a) This seems pretty extraordinary. Does anyone here have a Turbo Arrow III configured with a Turboplus intercooler? Do they actually experience these sorts of numbers? (b) Are the results of "FAA Certification flights" publically accessible somewhere so I can independently confirm this? -Sami Roger Halstead wrote: On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 04:44:21 GMT, "Mike Rapoport" wrote: Try: http://www.risingup.com/planespecs/ I don't know what "range" figure they are using (range with IFR reserves, VFR reserves or dry tanks) but it is a place to start. I think Mike did a great job of listing the qualifications. They have, at least for the Beech Deb and F33 only "basic" fuel and much of that is incorrect. OTOH there were so many combinations listed, but not used it does get confusing. They listed 50 gallons as the capacity, but very few ever left the factory configured that way. The early ones had two 25 mains and two 10 aux tanks. Early on they went to 80 gallons. (You only know when you check out the individual airplane) Mine, from the factory has the 4 tank arrangement for 70 gallons @ 14 per hour or 5.0 hours with no reserve of 800 miles. I carry an extra 15 in each tip for a bit over two more hours which is roughly 1130 miles. Whack an hour off for reserve plus change and it's basically an 800 mile plane with a useful load of 580# with full gas. Either some one stays home or you leave some gas behind. 4 FAA standard 170# adults = 680# With Joyce and I, it works out just fine and we can take along almost everything except the kitchen sink. We even get two full size bicycles in back. No matter how you look at it the only way a Bo would go the distance is with tip tanks and the budget doesn't go that high. And don't forget to go with "useable fuel" and not how much the plane will carry. I think he needs to add about 30 to 40 thousand (if not 60,000) to the price and figure about $20,000 a year. But ... I can't think of a single plane that would fit the bill. Going to 6 seats would, except the insurance companies might get fussy plus the price would be even higher. What about an older 210? Course the price for maintaining an older retract can get kinda steep too. Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?) www.rogerhalstead.com Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers Mike MU-2 "O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message ... Mike, Actually, my typical flight will be about 660nm...so I need that distance (plus 45 mins of reserve). Still, it would be good to have a sorted list of complex planes based on range. You are right...that is the key factor to consider first. What I would like to know is that once I factor this in, which aircraft make the short list. My used aircraft book does not list range in the spec sheet. it lists fuel capacity, but it does not list cruise burn rates, so it is hard to figure these out. I am just trying to tap into the expereince of this forum to either make some suggestions, or point me at sources that has the information I seek. -sami Mike Rapoport wrote: If you are going to really make 800nm flights then there will only be a handful of candidates (if any) that meet your other requirements and none of them will be close to your budget. In fact, I'm pretty sure that there isn't a single airplane that can meet your stated requirements at any price. If you are really going to make 800nm flights then range is the only thing that matters. It doesn't matter if one airplane is 30kts faster, if it has to refuel it well get there second. Keep in mind that to fly 800nm legs you will need over a 1000nm still air range. You might want to reconsider the payload with full fuel requirement. It doesn't really matter what the full fuel payload is. It matters what the payload is with enough fuel to make the flight. It is unlikely that you will ever fly four people 800nm in a single since it would be difficult to find three others who are willing to spend 5hrs in a little airplane. Engine TBO is a just one part of operating cost, it is silly to insist on some arbitrary number like 2000hrs. The real issue is how much per hour the engine will cost over its lifetime. I would look at what airplanes are within your budget.. Not just the aquisition budget but the flying budget too. Can you spend $20k/yr on flying? $30K? The worst airplane to own is one that is too expensive for you to fly regardless of its other virtues. Budget issues will narrow down the choices considerably. Then consider insurance if you feel you need insurance. Then how many people will realistically be in the airplane and how large are they. THEN you can consder the perfornace tradeoffs. Mike MU-2 "O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message ... Mike, I am going through a used aircraft guide and, unfortunately, they do not ordr their lists in a convenient way. While I agree that I have to consider they trade-offs carefully and make some hard choices, it seems to me that those choices begin with information about each factor (like speed) considered seperately. So...that is why it matters. -Sami Mike Rapoport wrote: What does it matter? You need to decide what is important to you, speed, range, payload or price. You are not going to get all of them. Your price range is so wide that I assume that you haven't really figured out how much you can spend and your performance requirements are so high that you will never find anything approaching your budget and your performance. If I were you, I would buy a the Used Aircraft Guide and start reading and think about what you are really looking for. Mike MU-2 "O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message ... Does anyone have, or know where I can find, an ordered list of high performance single-engine (HPSE) aircraft according to their crusing speed? It would even be cooler to have (average) retail prices in the list. If not, I will work on a project to put such a list together if others are interested. What I would really like to see is which aircraft has the best purchase-price-to-speed ratio. Someone has to have created such a list somewhere?! -Sami O. Sami Saydjari wrote: Folks, I am a first-time aircraft buyer. I have a general idea of the type of aircraft I want, but am having trouble narrowing the list down. Here is my general list of wants/needs: 1. Fast: 160 kts 2. Price range: $75K-$120K 3. Four Seater 4. Range: 800nm 5. Useful Payload (with full fuel); 650lbs 6. Retains its value well over time 7. Reliable: Engine TBO of 2000 hrs, good saftey record 8. Insurable for a pilot with only 350 hrs PIC experience (no HP/complex time) I have been thinking about a Piper Comanche 260 and a Piper Turbo Arrow III/IV. I was considering a Mooney M20J, but they feel a little cramped in the cabin to me. What I am looking for is the best dollars/kts airplane (what we call price/performance in the computer biz) that meets the above requirements. I would really appreciate suggestions and advice. -Sami |
#83
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Well, best purchase price to speed...my guess would be a Hawker Hunter.
You can pick up a single seat variant for about £45k, and it goes mach 0.92. Not sure what prices Gnats go for these days, but they do mach 0.98. Both are trans-sonic in a dive. Paul |
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