Welding techniques for 4130?

I am going to begin an aircraft project this winter and it looks like I have a
LOT of welding ahead of me. I'm curious as to the different methods, ie
brazing vs. arc, etc., and what the benefits or drawbacks of each method may
be. Is one style better? Stronger? Easier? I will be working with a buddy
who owns a machine shop and he has just about all the equipment I could ever
ask for. Given that availability of equipment, what would you welders out
there recommend or prefer?

Thanks.

"Building The Perfect Beast" wrote in
message ...
I am going to begin an aircraft project this winter and it looks
like I have a
LOT of welding ahead of me. I'm curious as to the different
methods, ie
brazing vs. arc, etc., and what the benefits or drawbacks of each
method may
be. Is one style better? Stronger? Easier? I will be working
with a buddy
who owns a machine shop and he has just about all the equipment I
could ever
ask for. Given that availability of equipment, what would you
welders out
there recommend or prefer?


Do a course in your local trade school or collage, this will save you
a lot of time and meterial.
--

..
--
Cheers,
Jonathan Lowe
modelflyer at antispam dot net

Antispam trap in place



Thanks.

Tig if not then oxy/ac
"Building The Perfect Beast" wrote in message
...
I am going to begin an aircraft project this winter and it looks like I
have a
LOT of welding ahead of me. I'm curious as to the different methods, ie
brazing vs. arc, etc., and what the benefits or drawbacks of each method
may
be. Is one style better? Stronger? Easier? I will be working with a
buddy
who owns a machine shop and he has just about all the equipment I could
ever
ask for. Given that availability of equipment, what would you welders out
there recommend or prefer?

Thanks.

On 28 Aug 2003 02:00 PM, Building The Perfect Beast posted the following:
I am going to begin an aircraft project this winter and it looks like
I have a LOT of welding ahead of me. I'm curious as to the different
methods, ie brazing vs. arc, etc., and what the benefits or drawbacks
of each method may be. Is one style better? Stronger? Easier? I
will be working with a buddy who owns a machine shop and he has just
about all the equipment I could ever ask for. Given that availability
of equipment, what would you welders out there recommend or prefer?

I'm going to assume you will be welding 4130 steel structures
exclusively. If you are a relative novice to welding, use oxy-acetylene
equipment and mild steel rod. Do a Google search on this newsgroup,
paying extra close attention to posts by Bruce Frank and a guy named
"Highflier." Also, the EAA puts out an excellent publication on
aircraft welding.

As for equipment, if I were buying new equipment I would buy one of the
standard cutting/welding kits from Victor or Harris (now owned by
lincoln electric) mainly to get the regulators and hoses. The torches
that come with those kits are on the large side for welding thin
material, so buy a smaller torch which will be more maneuverable,
especially around fuselage clusters. I've heard good reports about the
Meco Midget, the Smith Airline, and the Henrob (people who have used the
latter find it a bit heavy).

Unless you are already an accomplished welder, ignore suggestions to
purchase an expensive TIG welding machine. It is not necessary and may
lead to undesirable results unless you have already mastered the basics
of welding with oxy-acetylene equipment. I use a small TIG machine and
like it, but I also use it for other things (like aluminum and
automotive projects) and had quite a bit of oxy/acetylene experience
before trying it. If I couldn't afford a TIG unit, I would weld
together my airframe using oxy/acetylene with no hesitation.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Tig if not then oxy/ac
"Building The Perfect Beast" wrote in message
...
I am going to begin an aircraft project this winter and it looks like I
have a
LOT of welding ahead of me. I'm curious as to the different methods, ie
brazing vs. arc, etc., and what the benefits or drawbacks of each method
may
be. Is one style better? Stronger? Easier? I will be working with a
buddy
who owns a machine shop and he has just about all the equipment I could
ever
ask for. Given that availability of equipment, what would you welders out
there recommend or prefer?

Thanks.

On 28 Aug 2003 22:00:46 GMT, onloser (Building The
Perfect Beast) wrote:

I am going to begin an aircraft project this winter and it looks like I have a
LOT of welding ahead of me. I'm curious as to the different methods, ie
brazing vs. arc, etc., and what the benefits or drawbacks of each method may
be. Is one style better? Stronger? Easier? I will be working with a buddy
who owns a machine shop and he has just about all the equipment I could ever
ask for. Given that availability of equipment, what would you welders out
there recommend or prefer?

Thanks.

Welding means to fuse two metals together by melting them, often with
the addition of a filler.

There are many ways to do that: Stick, Oxy Acetylene torch, TIG, MIG
and some kind of friction method has been developed now. Of those
mentioned, stick and O/A are by far the least expensive. Of those
two, only O/A is recommended as it's very difficult to make a
satisfactory weld on thinwall tubing using a stick welder.

Thinwall 4130 tubing was developed originally to be welded using the
O/A method with a mild steel filler rod. The people who joined the
tubes using this method were really good at it and the welds are a
marvel to look at.

Anyone with the desire and a little understanding and practice can
manage a decent weld on thinwall tubing. The best method for learning
is to take a course, like those offered by Ron Alexander in
conjunction with EAA. You learn by doing yourself under close
supervision and can see with your own eys what constitutes a good weld
and what doesn't.

Brazing hasn't been tried much for several reasons but I understand
that there are brazing rods that are easily up to the task. The only
difficulty is that the brazing process is less able to fill gaps than
welding, so the joints must necessarily be closer in tolerence.

The bottom line is O/A welding is a proven method for joining thinwall
tubing and is no more expensive than brazing so why not weld?

Corky Scott

Actually, brazing is probably more expensive than welding.

Corky Scott wrote:

On 28 Aug 2003 22:00:46 GMT, onloser (Building The
Perfect Beast) wrote:

I am going to begin an aircraft project this winter and it looks like I have a
LOT of welding ahead of me. I'm curious as to the different methods, ie
brazing vs. arc, etc., and what the benefits or drawbacks of each method may
be. Is one style better? Stronger? Easier? I will be working with a buddy
who owns a machine shop and he has just about all the equipment I could ever
ask for. Given that availability of equipment, what would you welders out
there recommend or prefer?

Thanks.

Welding means to fuse two metals together by melting them, often with
the addition of a filler.

There are many ways to do that: Stick, Oxy Acetylene torch, TIG, MIG
and some kind of friction method has been developed now. Of those
mentioned, stick and O/A are by far the least expensive. Of those
two, only O/A is recommended as it's very difficult to make a
satisfactory weld on thinwall tubing using a stick welder.

Thinwall 4130 tubing was developed originally to be welded using the
O/A method with a mild steel filler rod. The people who joined the
tubes using this method were really good at it and the welds are a
marvel to look at.

Anyone with the desire and a little understanding and practice can
manage a decent weld on thinwall tubing. The best method for learning
is to take a course, like those offered by Ron Alexander in
conjunction with EAA. You learn by doing yourself under close
supervision and can see with your own eys what constitutes a good weld
and what doesn't.

Brazing hasn't been tried much for several reasons but I understand
that there are brazing rods that are easily up to the task. The only
difficulty is that the brazing process is less able to fill gaps than
welding, so the joints must necessarily be closer in tolerence.

The bottom line is O/A welding is a proven method for joining thinwall
tubing and is no more expensive than brazing so why not weld?

Corky Scott

--
Bruce A. Frank, Editor "Ford 3.8/4.2L Engine and V-6 STOL
Homebuilt Aircraft Newsletter"
| Publishing interesting material|
| on all aspects of alternative |
| engines and homebuilt aircraft.|
*------------------------------**----*
\(-o-)/ AIRCRAFT PROJECTS CO.
\___/ Manufacturing parts & pieces
/ \ for homebuilt aircraft,
0 0 TIG welding

While trying to find the time to finish mine.

Thousands of A/C have been welded up with Oxy-Acetylene. Why not go to an
EAA Sportair workshop? They run both Oxy-Acetylene [& TIG] welding
sessions. A 2-day hands-on class will get you started off right.
http://www.sportair.com/
nuke
"Building The Perfect Beast" wrote in message
...
I am going to begin an aircraft project this winter and it looks like I
have a
LOT of welding ahead of me. I'm curious as to the different methods, ie
brazing vs. arc, etc., and what the benefits or drawbacks of each method
may
be. Is one style better? Stronger? Easier? I will be working with a
buddy
who owns a machine shop and he has just about all the equipment I could
ever
ask for. Given that availability of equipment, what would you welders out
there recommend or prefer?

Thanks.

I have just been surfing through the EAA members only area of the website
under the homebuilt section/articles/welding and working with 4130. It seems
to me that all of the articles were written in the early and mid 90's. A lot
has changed since then and some things have had time to prove themselves. I
think that the EAA would be doing everyone a service if they would update
the information with current knowledgeable people writing the articles.

--
Have a good one!

Steve
www.americanspiritppc.com
"Matthew P. Cummings" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:46:36 -0400, nuke wrote:

Thousands of A/C have been welded up with Oxy-Acetylene. Why not go to
an
EAA Sportair workshop? They run both Oxy-Acetylene [& TIG] welding
sessions. A 2-day hands-on class will get you started off right.

At Oshkosh the instructor in the EAA welding forum said that due to new
information they now weld airframes with 4130 only, never ever use RG45.
I don't quite believe them and will do like Budd Davidson does, and nearly
the rest of the universe and weld with Oxy/Acetylene and RG 45, no fancy
Tig stuff for me because then I wouldn't be doing it.

Did anybody else attend the Welding forum and get that same information?
I'm wondering if the old guy was losing it, I think he's the same one on
the EAA tape, and there he goes with what most agree on, at Oshkosh he was
almost backwards on everything. In fact, some of the things he said, when
you got to the next instructor he would say don't do that, it's wrong, and
the student would argue that's what the other fellow just told the class.

So, I'm wondering what the value of this class is if the instructors
disagree among themselves, or was this just a bad day for that guy. BTW,
they were using RG45 rod that day.

I'm going to assume you will be welding 4130 steel structures
exclusively. If you are a relative novice to welding, use oxy-acetylene
equipment and mild steel rod. Do a Google search on this newsgroup,
paying extra close attention to posts by Bruce Frank and a guy named
"Highflier." Also, the EAA puts out an excellent publication on
aircraft welding.

Thanks Del. That's what I was looking for. I did a Google search and just
came up on too many hits. I was hoping that I might get it narrowed down and
you've done just that for me.


Unless you are already an accomplished welder, ignore suggestions to
purchase an expensive TIG welding machine. It is not necessary and may
lead to undesirable results unless you have already mastered the basics
of welding with oxy-acetylene equipment. I use a small TIG machine and
like it, but I also use it for other things (like aluminum and
automotive projects) and had quite a bit of oxy/acetylene experience
before trying it. If I couldn't afford a TIG unit, I would weld
together my airframe using oxy/acetylene with no hesitation.


Luckily I've got a buddy who is going to build with me and he is a master
welder. I plan on learning a lot from him. As for my experience, well, most
of it is on farm equipment and about all I've ever used oxy/acetylene for was
cutting stuff up. I'm a fair stick welder but I know I've got a lot to learn.
And I'm looking forward to it.

Done properly, do you feel that there is any difference in the quality of weld
produced by oxy/ace vs. TIG? Is the TIG just less hassle or what?