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OLC comment, MOP logging deactivated



 
 
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  #32  
Old July 12th 20, 12:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 774
Default OLC comment, MOP logging deactivated

Yes, the jet MOP is a separate unit built by LX. I mistakenly referred to it as an ENL.

We installed four of them on the Jet Arcus gliders we built a few years ago. (See the January/February 2017 of Gliding International.)
  #33  
Old July 12th 20, 01:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 546
Default OLC comment, MOP logging deactivated

On 7/12/20 3:09 AM, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
At 01:17 12 July 2020, wrote:
LX is the only company who has devices for putting flights into OLC if

you have a FES system.

I think LX is also the only company that offers an ENL suitable for

turbine
(jet) engines. The audible frequency of jets sometimes does not register
with a standard ENL that is optimized for a piston/propeller

installation.

I think you may mean a MOP type 1b box, which filters to a frequency more
common with Jet engines.

ENL is always internal to the recorder, but MOP is usually a remote sensor.


With a Jet, the main noise is from the Jet Pipe(s), so the sensor needs to
be (ideally) mounted in a suitable place to the rear of the piles, which
usually mounting the sensor at the rear of the engine bay. Hard to put a FR
there as it usually requires removing the engine to gain access.

If LXV is the only company to invest in designing, building and gaining
approval for a MOP box, it is not the fault of LXV. These are commercial
decisions by themselves and their competitors.

Also, it is OLC's decision to require a MOP type2 recorder for FES, not
IGC's.


Looking at LX Navigation (as opposed to LX Nav), they claim to have the
"Worlds first standalone MOP flight recorder with IGC approved sensor
for gliders equipped with jet or electric engines". That makes it sound
like the same hardware is usable for FES or jets. Which seems unlikely.

Withe the ear-splitting noise from a jet engine, you'd think they could
come up with a panel mounted ENL system that was suitable for jets.

Of course FES doesn't cover all all electric gliders, I suppose OLC will
have to change their rules again when the AS 34 and GP-15's start
flooding the market. Any day now.



  #34  
Old July 12th 20, 01:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 546
Default OLC comment, MOP logging deactivated

On 7/12/20 6:05 AM, kinsell wrote:
On 7/12/20 3:09 AM, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
At 01:17 12 July 2020, wrote:
LX is the only company who has devices for putting flights into OLC if
you have a FES system.

I think LX is also the only company that offers an ENL suitable for

turbine
(jet) engines. The audible frequency of jets sometimes does not register
with a standard ENL that is optimized for a piston/propeller

installation.

I think you may mean a MOP type 1b box, which filters to a frequency more
common with Jet engines.

ENL is always internal to the recorder, but MOP is usually a remote
sensor.


With a Jet, the main noise is from the Jet Pipe(s), so the sensor
needs to
be (ideally) mounted in a suitable place to the rear of the piles, which
usually mounting the sensor at the rear of the engine bay. Hard to put
a FR
there as it usually requires removing the engine to gain access.

If LXV is the only company to invest in designing, building and gaining
approval for a MOP box, it is not the fault of LXV. These are commercial
decisions by themselves and their competitors.

Also, it is OLC's decision to require a MOP type2 recorder for FES, not
IGC's.


Looking at LX Navigation (as opposed to LX Nav), they claim to have the
"Worlds first standalone MOP flight recorder with IGC approved sensor
for gliders equipped with jet or electric engines".* That makes it sound
like the same hardware is usable for FES or jets.* Which seems unlikely.

Withe the ear-splitting noise from a jet engine, you'd think they could
come up with a panel mounted ENL system that was suitable for jets.

Of course FES doesn't cover all all electric gliders, I suppose OLC will
have to change their rules again when the AS 34 and GP-15's start
flooding the market.* Any day now.



Oops, left out the Electric Libelle.
  #35  
Old July 12th 20, 02:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tim Newport-Peace[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 65
Default OLC comment, MOP logging deactivated

At 12:08 12 July 2020, kinsell wrote:
On 7/12/20 6:05 AM, kinsell wrote:
On 7/12/20 3:09 AM, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
At 01:17 12 July 2020, wrote:
LX is the only company who has devices for putting flights into OLC

if
you have a FES system.

I think LX is also the only company that offers an ENL suitable for
turbine
(jet) engines. The audible frequency of jets sometimes does not

register
with a standard ENL that is optimized for a piston/propeller
installation.

I think you may mean a MOP type 1b box, which filters to a frequency

more
common with Jet engines.

ENL is always internal to the recorder, but MOP is usually a remote
sensor.


With a Jet, the main noise is from the Jet Pipe(s), so the sensor
needs to
be (ideally) mounted in a suitable place to the rear of the piles,

which
usually mounting the sensor at the rear of the engine bay. Hard to put


a FR
there as it usually requires removing the engine to gain access.

If LXV is the only company to invest in designing, building and

gaining
approval for a MOP box, it is not the fault of LXV. These are

commercial
decisions by themselves and their competitors.

Also, it is OLC's decision to require a MOP type2 recorder for FES,

not
IGC's.


Looking at LX Navigation (as opposed to LX Nav), they claim to have the


"Worlds first standalone MOP flight recorder with IGC approved sensor
for gliders equipped with jet or electric engines".* That makes it

sound

like the same hardware is usable for FES or jets.* Which seems

unlikely.

Withe the ear-splitting noise from a jet engine, you'd think they could


come up with a panel mounted ENL system that was suitable for jets.

Of course FES doesn't cover all all electric gliders, I suppose OLC will


have to change their rules again when the AS 34 and GP-15's start
flooding the market.* Any day now.

They could still require a MOP type 2 ;=)


Oops, left out the Electric Libelle.


You are referring to the LX Navigation LX MOP IGC (Sometimes refered to as
a Type 3 MOP).

It records MOP for Jets with a maximum sensitivity at about 6000Hz and ENL
for the rest peaking at 150Hz.

"This small recorder is designed to be installed close to the maximum sound
produced by an engine. The approval does not include other positions that
produce small ENL/MOP numbers".

If mounted in the engine bay to conform to the requirement of being close
to the Jet Pipe(s), retrieving files could be an issue.


  #36  
Old July 12th 20, 03:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Emir Sherbi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 64
Default OLC comment, MOP logging deactivated

If the E-glide competitions becomes more popular the mop2 is more interesting. It has an external current sensor. It does not only record the motor activation regardless of the noise but you can measure and register how much energy is used.
The other types of sensors could "fall" in a place that does not record the motor(propeller) noise when using a power settings that extend the L/D.
You can't remove the current sensor without removing a power cable.
  #37  
Old July 12th 20, 03:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 546
Default OLC comment, MOP logging deactivated

On 7/12/20 7:58 AM, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
At 12:08 12 July 2020, kinsell wrote:
On 7/12/20 6:05 AM, kinsell wrote:
On 7/12/20 3:09 AM, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
At 01:17 12 July 2020, wrote:
LX is the only company who has devices for putting flights into OLC

if
you have a FES system.

I think LX is also the only company that offers an ENL suitable for
turbine
(jet) engines. The audible frequency of jets sometimes does not

register
with a standard ENL that is optimized for a piston/propeller
installation.

I think you may mean a MOP type 1b box, which filters to a frequency

more
common with Jet engines.

ENL is always internal to the recorder, but MOP is usually a remote
sensor.


With a Jet, the main noise is from the Jet Pipe(s), so the sensor
needs to
be (ideally) mounted in a suitable place to the rear of the piles,

which
usually mounting the sensor at the rear of the engine bay. Hard to put


a FR
there as it usually requires removing the engine to gain access.

If LXV is the only company to invest in designing, building and

gaining
approval for a MOP box, it is not the fault of LXV. These are

commercial
decisions by themselves and their competitors.

Also, it is OLC's decision to require a MOP type2 recorder for FES,

not
IGC's.


Looking at LX Navigation (as opposed to LX Nav), they claim to have the


"Worlds first standalone MOP flight recorder with IGC approved sensor
for gliders equipped with jet or electric engines".Â* That makes it

sound

like the same hardware is usable for FES or jets.Â* Which seems

unlikely.

Withe the ear-splitting noise from a jet engine, you'd think they could


come up with a panel mounted ENL system that was suitable for jets.

Of course FES doesn't cover all all electric gliders, I suppose OLC will


have to change their rules again when the AS 34 and GP-15's start
flooding the market.Â* Any day now.

They could still require a MOP type 2 ;=)


Oops, left out the Electric Libelle.


You are referring to the LX Navigation LX MOP IGC (Sometimes refered to as
a Type 3 MOP).

It records MOP for Jets with a maximum sensitivity at about 6000Hz and ENL
for the rest peaking at 150Hz.

"This small recorder is designed to be installed close to the maximum sound
produced by an engine. The approval does not include other positions that
produce small ENL/MOP numbers".

If mounted in the engine bay to conform to the requirement of being close
to the Jet Pipe(s), retrieving files could be an issue.



http://lxnavigation.com/downloads/ma...OP-IGC-1.0.pdf

The manual says it's a sound-based system suitable for jet or electric
gliders. Ideal mounting position is close to the spar. For an FES,
that doesn't make much sense.

It's powered from a CAN bus, which can be hooked to a Zeus unit for
convenient downloading. Used as a standalone unit, you'll need to mount
yet another GPS antenna. Could be a problem with carbon fiber bay doors.




  #38  
Old July 16th 20, 06:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Luka Žnidaršič[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default OLC comment, MOP logging deactivated

4.6.2020 I wrote email:

Dear Rainer,


Recently many FES owners asking about MOP2 installation as ENL is not accepted anymore.


Also on your FAQ is written:

1.18 FES aircraft with invalid logger recording, what can I do?

- For aircraft with a too low noise level, for example all aircraft with front electric sustainer (FES), the MOP level must also be recorded.
- Only the MOP2 sensor from LXNAV is approved by the OLC.


Please note that FES equipped gliders do not have a problem with too low ENL, as propeller is installed in the nose and noise frequency is such that it is easily recognizable by ENL. As you know ENL is problematic with jet gliders (for jets was developed MOP) and also with retractable electric like Antares for which MOP2 was developed.

For FES I think ENL should be accepted. I can provide many igc files for investigation (you can compare, ENL, MOP and FES bridge values).


While FES bridge is quite simple to install, is installation of MOP2 difficult after glider left the manufacturer.*


Another problem is that MOP2 works only with most recent instruments from LXNAV. Usage with older instruments is not possible.


Please consider accepting ENL as before.

How is with data from FES bridge?

Kind regards,

Luka

I received next answer:

Hi Luka,
thanks for your mail and sry. for our late answer.
Last winter we made a lot of effort to integrate FES aircrafts into the OLC..
After reviewing the documentation, we decided to approve only the LXNAV MOP Type 2 sensor in the first year of introduction, because it is the only IGC approved sensor that measures both electrically and ENL.
We have already published this in April in the OLC magazine and there will be no change/extension in the OLC for the time being.
We have to gain experience now.
We ask for your understanding for our decision.
Thanks in advance.
Kind regards - Reiner
  #39  
Old July 16th 20, 01:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default OLC comment, MOP logging deactivated

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 9:26:44 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Good day all, before the season start I downloaded the Flarm verion 6.83 and it installed ok.
We just started flying and my declaration is in light grey as the OLC system decla Autocomment: Used Aircraft is FES glider, but MOP logging deactivated.
I looked in my flarm info and the licences present in my flarm include " ENL ".

Any bodie know what this OLC comment refer to

Many Thanks in advance and fly safely

André Pepin Lak 17b fes 21m " DB "



I updated firmware on S10 and MOP2, and FES flight logs now accepted by OLC..

However, I agree with Luka, a current sensor is not needed for a ENL FR and the FES. My flight logs from my ClearNav Vario FR definitely detect operation of the FES, even at low power readings.
Tim Welles
 




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