Challenger Crashe at TEB

George Patterson wrote:

An AP article stated that the temperature at the time was 20 degrees.
I think that rules out frost, but I'm not sure.

George, as I posted earlier, I have personally experienced three different
aircraft frosting over within 10 minutes of landing when the outside air
temp was around 5-10 degrees F. Temperature alone does not rule out
frost.


--
Peter







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"Matt Whiting" wrote in message It does sound like something failed that
blocked or froze the control
column. Sounds unlikely, but this was an experienced captain (one
source said 15,000 hours) so I trust he knew that the stick wasn't
moving enough for takeoff.

Trusting sorts get squashed. The PIC may very well have that much flight
time, but according to my source he was typed in Challengers just 2 weeks
ago. The FO purportedly had a couple hours total in Challengers. My source
indicates that one pilot wanted to continue the take-off and one wanted to
abort. Poor CRM led to mayhem.

D. (so much for icing)

"George Patterson" wrote in message
...
An AP article stated that the temperature at the time was 20 degrees. I
think
that rules out frost, but I'm not sure.

Nope. When I flew last Wednesday morning, the temperature was -7C, and it
took me about twenty minutes to remove all the frost from the wings and
tail.

--Gary

Peter R. wrote:
George Patterson wrote:


An AP article stated that the temperature at the time was 20 degrees.
I think that rules out frost, but I'm not sure.


George, as I posted earlier, I have personally experienced three different
aircraft frosting over within 10 minutes of landing when the outside air
temp was around 5-10 degrees F. Temperature alone does not rule out
frost.

Yes, I routinely have frost on my car windshields at all sorts of temps.
We had a cold snap a week ago where we got down to -15F a couple of
nights and I had a light layer of really hard to remove frost on my
vehicle that is parked outside. Unfortunately, polishing it smooth
doesn't help much for visibility through it!


Matt

Capt.Doug wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message It does sound like something failed that
blocked or froze the control
column. Sounds unlikely, but this was an experienced captain (one
source said 15,000 hours) so I trust he knew that the stick wasn't
moving enough for takeoff.


Trusting sorts get squashed. The PIC may very well have that much flight
time, but according to my source he was typed in Challengers just 2 weeks
ago. The FO purportedly had a couple hours total in Challengers. My source
indicates that one pilot wanted to continue the take-off and one wanted to
abort. Poor CRM led to mayhem.

Yes, poor CRM can be deadly. I didn't hear the time in type, just the
total PIC. Even so, it seems like someone that experienced would be
able to tell functioning controls from non-functioning controls.


Matt

Joe Johnson wrote:

"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...
Thank you for pointing this out. The "visable moisture" requirement is
for
in-flight icing, not frost. Temp/Dewpoint at TEB yesterday morning was
M04/M08. Obviously the "collecting surface" was below freezing and the
temp
dewpoint spread was narrow enough for the humidity to sublimate and create
frost on the wings.

Jim

Sounds like we're closing in on an answer, or at the very least reasonably
informed speculation.

Mechanical failure and errors in the cockpit have been ruled out already?
Nothing wrong with speculations, but why limit it to a narrow area?

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ...
Capt.Doug wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message It does sound like something failed that
blocked or froze the control
column. Sounds unlikely, but this was an experienced captain (one
source said 15,000 hours) so I trust he knew that the stick wasn't
moving enough for takeoff.


Trusting sorts get squashed. The PIC may very well have that much flight
time, but according to my source he was typed in Challengers just 2 weeks
ago. The FO purportedly had a couple hours total in Challengers. My source
indicates that one pilot wanted to continue the take-off and one wanted to
abort. Poor CRM led to mayhem.

Yes, poor CRM can be deadly. I didn't hear the time in type, just the total PIC. Even so, it seems like someone that
experienced would be able to tell functioning controls from non-functioning controls.


Matt


Voice recorder was pretty much quite except for an abort takeoff comment. The pilot apparently said 'something broke'
after the crash, and another comment I heard said that the yoke only moved about 1"....

Anyone here know what kind of control locks are installed on the
Challengers?

Dave


On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 00:24:11 GMT, "Blueskies"
wrote:


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ...
Capt.Doug wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message It does sound like something failed that
blocked or froze the control
column. Sounds unlikely, but this was an experienced captain (one
source said 15,000 hours) so I trust he knew that the stick wasn't
moving enough for takeoff.


Trusting sorts get squashed. The PIC may very well have that much flight
time, but according to my source he was typed in Challengers just 2 weeks
ago. The FO purportedly had a couple hours total in Challengers. My source
indicates that one pilot wanted to continue the take-off and one wanted to
abort. Poor CRM led to mayhem.

Yes, poor CRM can be deadly. I didn't hear the time in type, just the total PIC. Even so, it seems like someone that
experienced would be able to tell functioning controls from non-functioning controls.


Matt


Voice recorder was pretty much quite except for an abort takeoff comment. The pilot apparently said 'something broke'
after the crash, and another comment I heard said that the yoke only moved about 1"....

"Dave" wrote in message ...
Anyone here know what kind of control locks are installed on the
Challengers?

Dave



That is what I was thinking...

Blueskies wrote:

"Dave" wrote in message ...

Anyone here know what kind of control locks are installed on the
Challengers?

Dave




That is what I was thinking...



I don't know what the control system design is on the Challenger, but
perusing the Moog web site suggests that it uses Moog hydraulic
actuators. If that is the case, then no control locks are needed. I've
never heard of a modern bizjet using control locks, but I suppose there
are some that do.


Matt