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Question on ditching an Orion



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 29th 10, 06:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval
frank
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 105
Default Question on ditching an Orion

On Oct 28, 10:02*pm, "Dave Kearton"
wrote:
"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message

news


In article ,
"Dave Kearton" wrote:


"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the
sensitive
gear to be destroyed, he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was left of the
plane was flown back to the US after the Chinese were done with it.


If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a
nasty
option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission
Supervisor
Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what its
mission
was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still searching..."
And
who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of each other,
there's
no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during the bailout,
drowned
in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no comms on his way to
port,
or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed and explicit about EP-3
capabilities in a Beijing basement.


Once the hard discs, memory cards, crypto modules, whatever have been
dealt with, the EP-3 is an elderly turboprop with a lot of radio
receivers
feeding to dead systems. Not a lot of genuine intel value the it's
an
ELINT platform, gee whiz, who knew?


The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:
keeping
them together, alive, and getting them all home protects the most
important asset.


Who cares what the Chinese would see on the plane, they would get that
hardware via other means anyway.


A cynical part of me wonders how much of the hardware is "Made in
China"
anyway. Radio receivers aren't exactly new or secret, it's what they
feed,
what you can achieve with them and what you were sent to get that
matter.


--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.


Paul J. Adam


Just parenthetical to all of this, I showed up in Beijing the day after
the
incident.


My trip was booked for weeks beforehand, but my engineer and I showed up
at
the airport, on 28-day tourist visas with bags full of electronics to
work
at the Australian Embassy.


It's a lot more pedestrian than it sounds, but we sailed through customs
and
immigration at the airport. * * During our routine briefing, the security
officer at the embassy told us that the Chinese _knew_ we were spooks.
(NO -
we weren't, but that didn't matter) * * * *The Chinese didn't care, as
long
as they knew what we were up to and what we found out while we were
there.
It's only if there is some doubt on this last part that we'd be detained
at
the airport - at the end of our 28 days - by the guy with the rubber
gloves.


It was a time of slightly elevated tension between the US and China and
the
internal security crowd were working overtime on 'visitors' who pretended
to
be tourists. * * *We were followed, tailed, politely questioned by locals
and my hotel room was bugged.


Apart from all that, China's a lovely country and we got lots of work
done.....


This reminds me of a story of a married couple of friends who fly for a
major international airline (Both are pilots). He was also an AF Reserve
BG.


We liked to play the board game Risk together, so thy bought an
electronic version to play on layovers. They had a layover in Beijing
and played Risk in the hotel room. I can just hear, "I just captured
Japan" *-- "I just took Great Britain", etc. Of course, the room HAD to
be bugged!


Anyway, they took a guided tour of Beijing the next morning. She
remarked to us that they were the only people on the bus and got a
personal guided tour.


I can just imaging the conversation in Chinese Intel: "What's an
American BG doing in Beijing, masquerading as an airline pilot?"


* * ***********


Another friend visited Beijing about 25 years ago, as a member of a
scientific exchange team. At that time, there were two kinds of cars
the green (military) and black (government). They were moved through
Customs and sent to a black car, with Chinese driver, to go to their
quarters and told that the drivers did not speak English. As they were
going down the road, a pig crossed in front of them. Ben,always the
joker, exclaimed, "There goes dinner!" The driver giggled -- they had
another driver the next morning and did not get the original one back.


Two stories - that happened to me ...

My hotel room - in the Great Wall Sheraton

My hotel room had hidden cameras, I found at least two. * * * * One covered
the bedroom area, from an air-conditioning grille and just gets an overall
view.

The other ???? * * * * * * You know when you have a shower and the bathroom
mirror fogs up ? * * * * * *When I took a shower, *the mirror fogged up -
with the exception of a brick-sized space that remained clear.

There are only three things in a hotel bathroom; a bath/shower, a hand basin
and the toilet. * * * * * * *If there was a camera hidden in that space, *it
wouldn't see the shower, *it might see the edge of the hand basin area,
try not to form a mental image * it would see the back of your head when
you were sitting on the porcelain.

I don't know how much they were paying the poor guy who had to watch that
video of me on the can - but it certainly wasn't enough.

Rocky & Bullwinkle

Can't say a lot about what we were up to at the embassy *- *it's not a
secret, just bad manners to talk about other customers' premises.
What I can say is we were servicing CCTV cameras. * * * * * To make the job
easier, we took a couple of handheld CB radios (hoping the CB band in China
was the same as ours). * * * * *I'd be up on a ladder, tweaking a camera
lens and Peter, my engineer would be at the monitor telling me how the
picture looked.

After several hours of this tedium, *I clicked on the mike and said *"OK
Boris, first we do cameras, then we kill Moose and Squirrel"

As it happened, *the Embassy's head of security was in the security room
with Peter, when all this happened. * * * * * Frank ***** was a year away
from retirement, a chain smoker and nothing ever bothered him anymore.
He casually wandered over to where I was up a ladder, cuddling the camera,
lit up a nail and took a drag.

Then in the most laconic voice he could be bothered to muster, *he said * *"
you know Dave, *big exhale the Chinese secret police never watched Rocky
and Bullwinkle when they were kids, *big drag with drawback unless you
want to spend 12 hours at the airport with the guy with the long rubber
glove, *you might not want to muck about on the radio"

(well he didn't say 'muck' about, *but it was close)

--

Cheers

Dave Kearton


Way back in the dark ages, we used to have the location of the nearest
Ruskie trawler posted at the site in the secure area to keep people
aware Boris was watching. Or listening to Armed Forces Radio.
  #22  
Old October 29th 10, 08:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
BobP
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Question on ditching an Orion

On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 22:33:47 -0700 (PDT), frank
wrote:

On Oct 28, 7:35*pm, BobP wrote:
On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:05:59 -0700, Tankfixer



wrote:
In article ,
says...


In message , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the
sensitive gear to be destroyed, he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was
left of the plane was flown back to the US after the Chinese were done
with it.


If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a
nasty option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission
Supervisor Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what
its mission was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still
searching..." And who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of
each other, there's no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during
the bailout, drowned in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no
comms on his way to port, or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed
and explicit about EP-3 capabilities in a Beijing basement.


Once the hard discs, memory cards, crypto modules, whatever have been
dealt with, the EP-3 is an elderly turboprop with a lot of radio
receivers feeding to dead systems. Not a lot of genuine intel value
the it's an ELINT platform, gee whiz, who knew?


The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:
keeping them together, alive, and getting them all home protects the
most important asset.


Who cares what the Chinese would see on the plane, they would get that
hardware via other means anyway.


A cynical part of me wonders how much of the hardware is "Made in China"
anyway. Radio receivers aren't exactly new or secret, it's what they
feed, what you can achieve with them and what you were sent to get that
matter.


I always wondered why once they had landed and all that a rather nasty
fire didn't break out onboard...


Maybe they discovered that destruct packages were more trouble than
they were worth. After they brought in the F-4Ds at Ubon in
May 1967 we had problems with the destruct packages in the APS-107
Omni Analyzer in one of the forward missile wells going off on the
ground. Interesting watching the reaction of people seeing smoke come
out of the forward bottom part of the aircraft. If I remember right
they were all out within a month...

They had a little box called the destruct power supply that went along
with the destruct package. We had them all sitting on a shelf awaiting
instruction on what to do with them. The canon plugs were oddball so
we couldn't get a tight fitting cap.
Maintenance supervisor came in one day and reached for an uncovered
plug, the cap had fallen off, and said you should have a cap on this.
He must have touched the plug and bam he was flying out the door of
the little storage room. Impressive. They actually store power as
advertised. He was not amused!


Generally best way to kill electronics is turn the cooling fans off.
Let all the electrons run around in circles and heat up.


No fans in the F-4s RHAW equipment back then. No problems even on 100
degree days on the flight line. Long time ago, but I don't remember
fans for the little magnetrons in the ALQ-160/71 jamming pods. If I
remember the different pods right there was a requirement that they be
above 250 kts before they were turned on so they would be up fairly
high and cool.
The BWOs in the later pods were cooled by circulating fluid through
them and tubing on the inside of the metal barrel of the pods.

The destruct package on the APS-107 was rather ridiculous anyway. The
enemy had to know we could detect a launch when the APR-26 came out
and planes took evasive action. There was also a magazine article that
came out around that time about how that Secret equipment worked.G
The APR-26 used an analog method of launch detection and the APS-107
actually decoded the pulse train to the missile. The destruct package,
a metal plate, was designed to fry the little board with ICs on it
that did the decoding. The later APR-37 also used the pulse detection
method.

  #23  
Old October 29th 10, 10:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
William Black[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default Question on ditching an Orion

On 29/10/10 00:05, Tankfixer wrote:
In ,
says...

In , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the
sensitive gear to be destroyed, he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was
left of the plane was flown back to the US after the Chinese were done
with it.


If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a
nasty option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission
Supervisor Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what
its mission was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still
searching..." And who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of
each other, there's no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during
the bailout, drowned in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no
comms on his way to port, or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed
and explicit about EP-3 capabilities in a Beijing basement.

Once the hard discs, memory cards, crypto modules, whatever have been
dealt with, the EP-3 is an elderly turboprop with a lot of radio
receivers feeding to dead systems. Not a lot of genuine intel value
the it's an ELINT platform, gee whiz, who knew?

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:
keeping them together, alive, and getting them all home protects the
most important asset.

Who cares what the Chinese would see on the plane, they would get that
hardware via other means anyway.


A cynical part of me wonders how much of the hardware is "Made in China"
anyway. Radio receivers aren't exactly new or secret, it's what they
feed, what you can achieve with them and what you were sent to get that
matter.


I always wondered why once they had landed and all that a rather nasty
fire didn't break out onboard...


I read somewhere that the Chinese were unable to gain access for almost
an hour after the aircraft landed.

Oner is forced to assume that everything too big to dump out of the
aircraft was comprehensibly smashed before they opened the doors...


--
William Black

Free men have open minds
If you want loyalty, buy a dog...
  #24  
Old October 29th 10, 03:15 PM posted to sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval
a425couple
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 69
Default Question on ditching an Orion

"La N" wrote in message...
a425couple wrote:
"Gordon" wrote in message...
- "a425couple" wrote:
- "Eugene Griessel" wrote in message...
- "a425couple" wrote:
- In 2001 a US (big snip)
-Ultimately, the pilot has responsibility for the safety of his crew
-but when it involves spyplanes or other strategic assets that would
-obviously help the enemy, crews should understand that every effort
-must be made to keep those aircraft out of the hands of the enemy. I
-was appalled by the EP-3 pilots decision to land in China..
-v/r Gordon
Thank you Gordon.


I took the liberty of looking up Gordon's website: www.oldboldpilots.org
Some really good reading, including bios, there. Lots of distinguished
members too.
- nilita


Yes, indeed.

Meanwhile my friend, a while back you asked about current
reading books.
Recently I happened to do a rather interesting light read.
I'd class it as fictional colonial period naval (piracy) and human
relations.
The title was "The only life that mattered."
Check out the preview at (or get a good start at reading it!)
http://books.google.com/books?id=rfY...page&q&f=false

If it sounds interesting to you, let me know either
here or by private email, and I'll get the book back
from who I loaned it to and mail it to you.

  #25  
Old October 29th 10, 03:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
a425couple
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 69
Default Question on ditching an Orion


"Paul J. Adam" wrote...
In message , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the sensitive
gear to be destroyed,


Well, the last above line is the critical question!
Did you read the original cite
http://readersupportednews.org/off-s...-online-threat
The Online Threat
Should we be worried about a cyber war?
by Seymour M. Hersh
Read more
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...#ixzz13l1jc4sV

and find it unconvincing?

he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was left of the plane was flown back to
the US after the Chinese were done with it.


If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a nasty
option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission Supervisor
Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what its mission
was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still searching..." And
who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of each other, there's
no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during the bailout, drowned
in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no comms on his way to port,
or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed and explicit about EP-3
capabilities in a Beijing basement.


Very interesting valid point of view, thanks.

I certainly admit that I do not know what 'equipment' and
software was destroyed and what was still discoverable.
I'm also not sure how knowledgable the crew was!

For example, in WWII it was policy that nobody who
had knowledge of important secrets should ever be allowed
in areas where it might be possible to be captured.

For example, anyone who even knew that we were able
to decipher the Japanese messages (MAGIC) was not to
be in harms way *.

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:


Are you really sure about that?
Knowing how to use a computer program, does not
at all mean, you know the program. Or the equipment
that runs the program.


*
Leatherneck: Star-Crossed Translator
Story by Dick Camp
Second Lt Merle Ralph Cory was an expert cryptanalyst, who, ---- joined the
Corps and went to war. His comprehensive knowledge of the American
code-breaking successes caused many to second-guess the decision that
allowed him to risk capture by the Japanese.
((It was no "decision", he just slipped through the cracks.))
((he had gone on a 'patrol', and was killed))
Ralph Cory should never have been ---- at Guadalcanal. It was government
policy that anyone connected with MAGIC was expressly prohibited from combat
or duty that put them in close proximity to the enemy. He slipped through
the cracks ---. 2004 Leatherneck Magazine. All rights reserved.


  #26  
Old October 29th 10, 10:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Paul J. Adam[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 31
Default Question on ditching an Orion

In message , a425couple
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote...
If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a
nasty option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission
Supervisor Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and
what its mission was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're
still searching..." And who's to know different? Once the crew lose
sight of each other, there's no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy
died during the bailout, drowned in the ocean, is on a slow fishing
boat with no comms on his way to port, or is being forcibly persuaded
to be detailed and explicit about EP-3 capabilities in a Beijing basement.


Very interesting valid point of view, thanks.

I certainly admit that I do not know what 'equipment' and
software was destroyed and what was still discoverable.
I'm also not sure how knowledgable the crew was!


They for sure knew enough to deal with "Drop everything, we've got the
Premier's private phone!" or similar prioritisation: they'd know what
they could and could not get, what they were tasked to receive, what
they'd been ordered to be alert to "just in case", and so on.

For example, in WWII it was policy that nobody who
had knowledge of important secrets should ever be allowed
in areas where it might be possible to be captured.


Depends on the compartments. You have to hit the balance between
protecting your secrets, and achieving the mission.

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:


Are you really sure about that?


Utterly certain? No.

Pretty confident? Yes.

Knowing how to use a computer program, does not
at all mean, you know the program. Or the equipment
that runs the program.


But you know what you're listening to, what can be cracked and
translated aboard, what has to be recorded for later analysis, what the
priorities and orders for the mission were, what the aircraft can and
can't achieve.

For a slightly forced armour analogy: the gunner doesn't know how the
code in the ballistic computer runs and couldn't rewrite it from memory.
But, with the computer properly trashed, the gunner is the person who
potentially could be made to say what he can and can't hit in various
circumstances, aided by whatever radar pixies dance inside the little
boxes. "How do we copy that?" is one risk: "Dear God, we never knew they
were that good" is another; and exposing "Is *that* the best they can
actually do?" a third.

--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam
  #27  
Old October 29th 10, 10:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Matt Wiser
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 34
Default Question on ditching an Orion

On Oct 29, 7:58*am, "a425couple" wrote:
"Paul J. Adam" wrote...

In message , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the sensitive
gear to be destroyed,


Well, the last above line is the critical question!
Did you read the original citehttp://readersupportednews.org/off-site-news-section/157-157/3730-the...
The Online Threat
Should we be worried about a cyber war?
by Seymour M. Hersh
Read morehttp://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/11/01/101101fa_fact_hersh?cur...

and find it unconvincing?

he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was left of the plane was flown back to
the US after the Chinese were done with it.


If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a nasty
option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission Supervisor
Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what its mission
was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still searching..." And
who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of each other, there's
no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during the bailout, drowned
in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no comms on his way to port,
or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed and explicit about EP-3
capabilities in a Beijing basement.


Very interesting valid point of view, thanks.

I certainly admit that I do not know what 'equipment' and
software was destroyed and what was still discoverable.
I'm also not sure how knowledgable the crew was!

For example, in WWII it was policy that nobody who
had knowledge of important secrets should ever be allowed
in areas where it might be possible to be captured.

For example, anyone who even knew that we were able
to decipher the Japanese messages (MAGIC) was not to
be in harms way *.

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:


Are you really sure about that?
Knowing how to use a computer program, does not
at all mean, you know the program. *Or the equipment
that runs the program.

*
Leatherneck: Star-Crossed Translator
Story by Dick Camp
Second Lt Merle Ralph Cory was an expert cryptanalyst, who, ---- *joined the
Corps and went to war. His comprehensive knowledge of the American
code-breaking successes caused many to second-guess the decision that
allowed him to risk capture by the Japanese.
((It was no "decision", he just slipped through the cracks.))
((he had gone on a 'patrol', and was killed))
Ralph Cory should never have been ---- at Guadalcanal. It was government
policy that anyone connected with MAGIC was expressly prohibited from combat
or duty that put them in close proximity to the enemy. He slipped through
the cracks ---. 2004 Leatherneck Magazine. All rights reserved.


Anything from Seymour Hersh is unconvincing. He's had an anti-military
bent ever since the '60s.
  #28  
Old October 30th 10, 12:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
tankfixer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 80
Default Question on ditching an Orion

In article ,
says...

On 29/10/10 00:05, Tankfixer wrote:
In ,
says...

In , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the
sensitive gear to be destroyed, he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was
left of the plane was flown back to the US after the Chinese were done
with it.

If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a
nasty option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission
Supervisor Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what
its mission was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still
searching..." And who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of
each other, there's no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during
the bailout, drowned in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no
comms on his way to port, or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed
and explicit about EP-3 capabilities in a Beijing basement.

Once the hard discs, memory cards, crypto modules, whatever have been
dealt with, the EP-3 is an elderly turboprop with a lot of radio
receivers feeding to dead systems. Not a lot of genuine intel value
the it's an ELINT platform, gee whiz, who knew?

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:
keeping them together, alive, and getting them all home protects the
most important asset.

Who cares what the Chinese would see on the plane, they would get that
hardware via other means anyway.

A cynical part of me wonders how much of the hardware is "Made in China"
anyway. Radio receivers aren't exactly new or secret, it's what they
feed, what you can achieve with them and what you were sent to get that
matter.


I always wondered why once they had landed and all that a rather nasty
fire didn't break out onboard...


I read somewhere that the Chinese were unable to gain access for almost
an hour after the aircraft landed.


That's what I understand..
Seems like plenty of time to do some mischief...


Oner is forced to assume that everything too big to dump out of the
aircraft was comprehensibly smashed before they opened the doors...



  #29  
Old October 30th 10, 01:49 AM posted to sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval
dott.Piergiorgio
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 56
Default Question on ditching an Orion

Il 28/10/2010 17:49, a425couple ha scritto:

Odds and probabilities. That is how most of us make many decisions each
and every day. Yes, every action MIGHT result in disaster. But we still
get out and do things. But we do try to do things in a reasonable manner
to increase the odds of a reasonable outcome. And this is even more
important when something has already gone badly wrong.


IIRC there was experiments on crew survivability during Victorian age,
done putting mannequins (and in these happy pre-PETA days, also sheeps
&c.) on stricken target ships, and counting splinting &c in the
mannequins after the live fire exercise and counting dead/dying sheeps,
the results was substantially the same: splintered mannequin and intact
mannequin together.


Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
  #30  
Old November 1st 10, 05:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
frank
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 105
Default Question on ditching an Orion

On Oct 29, 4:08*pm, Matt Wiser wrote:
On Oct 29, 7:58*am, "a425couple" wrote:



"Paul J. Adam" wrote...


In message , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the sensitive
gear to be destroyed,


Well, the last above line is the critical question!
Did you read the original citehttp://readersupportednews.org/off-site-news-section/157-157/3730-the...
The Online Threat
Should we be worried about a cyber war?
by Seymour M. Hersh
Read morehttp://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/11/01/101101fa_fact_hersh?cur...


and find it unconvincing?


he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was left of the plane was flown back to
the US after the Chinese were done with it.


If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a nasty
option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission Supervisor
Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what its mission
was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still searching..." And
who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of each other, there's
no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during the bailout, drowned
in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no comms on his way to port,
or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed and explicit about EP-3
capabilities in a Beijing basement.


Very interesting valid point of view, thanks.


I certainly admit that I do not know what 'equipment' and
software was destroyed and what was still discoverable.
I'm also not sure how knowledgable the crew was!


For example, in WWII it was policy that nobody who
had knowledge of important secrets should ever be allowed
in areas where it might be possible to be captured.


For example, anyone who even knew that we were able
to decipher the Japanese messages (MAGIC) was not to
be in harms way *.


The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:


Are you really sure about that?
Knowing how to use a computer program, does not
at all mean, you know the program. *Or the equipment
that runs the program.


*
Leatherneck: Star-Crossed Translator
Story by Dick Camp
Second Lt Merle Ralph Cory was an expert cryptanalyst, who, ---- *joined the
Corps and went to war. His comprehensive knowledge of the American
code-breaking successes caused many to second-guess the decision that
allowed him to risk capture by the Japanese.
((It was no "decision", he just slipped through the cracks.))
((he had gone on a 'patrol', and was killed))
Ralph Cory should never have been ---- at Guadalcanal. It was government
policy that anyone connected with MAGIC was expressly prohibited from combat
or duty that put them in close proximity to the enemy. He slipped through
the cracks ---. 2004 Leatherneck Magazine. All rights reserved.


Anything from Seymour Hersh is unconvincing. He's had an anti-military
bent ever since the '60s.


He may be anti military, but he does have his sources. Consider, if
the powers that be do something stupid and the peons at the bottom
don't like it, they do talk to reporters like a sieve. And DC is bad
about that.

I don't know why people with a clearance feel the need to leak. I
remember some GS whatevers, that really knew better shooting their
mouths off on stuff they should never had knowledge of. We're trying
to keep it secret and compartementalized, meanwhile some damned
bureaucrat is running his mouth all over the base. Go figure.

Which is why some people never told their wives anything. I'd never
tell mine anything. She's blabs. I get back in the real world, not
ever sure I'd tell her where I was.
 




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