Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

terry wrote in
:

On Mar 13, 4:55*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
WJRFlyBoy wrote
innews:au07i6kpg998.na9z6vwx
:





On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:46:16 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Tina wrote in
news:874d408e-73e6-4064-8d08-
:

I don't think anyone has suggested this, but there is a nearly
universal cure if you find yourself uncomfortably out of a
reasonable approach condition -- simply say to yourself this
isn't looking good enough, *go around, and do better the next
time.

It's my uneducated opinion that too many perfectly good airplanes
get turned to scrap because pilots continue to commit to an
action that has become untenable. You have a hand on the throttle
and it's important to remember to be ready to push it in if you
don't like the way things are shaping up.

Absolutely.

Don't let ego get in the way of good judgement.

True again. Sometimes it's not ego, though. A lot of thigs come
into play, especially if conditions are tough. It's a curious
thing, the sort of single-mindedness that often accompanies an
accident.

Bertie

Lesson here is go-around if concerned and make sure you are preset
for that option?

Yeah. Should be, but we're only human. We have a two approach limit,
too. We're not allowed to do a third one ( company manual)
the number of accidents off a third approach is alarming.

so you just stay up there? :)


Yeah, I've been holding over Wayne county since '83



Bertie

Roger wrote in
:

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:40:09 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in news:343516c1-8fa1-
:

On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken

-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training pilot

And although we sometimes hear complaints about the GA safety record,
There are those rare statements that sometimes make me wonder why it's
as good as it is.

Very true. It's a bit the same way I marvel at the way my body continues to
function.



Bertie

Dan wrote in
:

On Mar 13, 1:53 am, Roger wrote:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:40:09 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:



"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in news:343516c1-8fa1-
:

On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker"
wrote:

-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken

-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training
pilot

And although we sometimes hear complaints about the GA safety record,
There are those rare statements that sometimes make me wonder why
it's as good as it is.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)www.rogerhalstead.com

Hunh?

Often get this feeling you're missing something?

Oh wait. I guess you don't. Enjoy.


Bertie

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Roger wrote:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:52:38 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken
-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training
pilot -- don't cross control stall on turn to final!
A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns,
even in twink flying, gee I wonder why.
It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was

Perfectly safe if not close to the ground and the pilot is
proficient
ant not just current.

a requirement for a pilot's license.
Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

The Practical Test Standard requires the
demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree
bank and a safe or recommended airspeed.

That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's
not going to be 2g in my plane.

2Gg turns are fun nor are they hazardous when not done close to the
ground. When I took Bo specific training the instructor started
talking me into a steep turn. I asked if it was OK to just roll into
it and go. I He said "OK", so I just rolled left and pulled. Coming
up on the proper heading he said now lets do one the other direction
where by I rolled to the right and pulled. This brought a laughing
comment, "You really like to do these things don't you?" My puzzled
"sure", brought the explanation that most of the Bo pilots would only
grudgingly do 45 degrees let alone 60. You should have heard them
complain when told the instructors would be blocking the yokes so
they couldn't use the ailerons when doing stalls.:-))

I've found few of newer pilots and instructors like 2G at 60 degrees
or the stalling characteristics of the Deb so when I go out to
practice it's only the "old timers" who go along.

When I took the PTS it was 60 degrees and 2Gs. By not going to 60
degrees in steep turns the students miss out on the different banking
tendencies/characteristics. I often think it should be put back to
that. There have been moments where I've been glad they did things
that way back then. One such moment was when a ultra light flying
far later than allowed popped out of the dark directly in front of me
when I was no more than a couple hundred yards (if that) from the end
of the runway. Another was on the VOR approach to MtPleasant where
you fly directly over the runway at 500 feet to the VOR to go missed
on 27. When the instructor's voice went up an octave and he said and
I quote..."What that...Oh, ****! Pull UP, Pull UP! I went full
power, stood the Deb on end and did a push over to level off that
left things floating. He never would tell me how close we came but
from his actions I'd say probably no more than a few feet. BTW I did
all of that under the hood. I mentioned to the CFI that I figured
had it been really close he'd have taken over. He said he figured
that I knew the limits of the plane and would react quicker than he
could even if he could see. He was right though, The urgency (I
couldeven feel him tense sitting next to me) told me that this should
be a maximum effort and not just a climb. Made me glad I use 120 for
approaches instead of 80 or 90 too:-))

Neither of these were things covered in primary training or the PTS.
They took a lot of time and practice getting to know the limits of
the Deb.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

I agree. I had to do 60 degree banked turns for my Private as well.


Sheesh. I can't remember what I had to do . I do remember spins, some
hood time and an engine failure on takeoff. I also remember filing and
putting in a cruising altitude of say, 3500 and then being so afraid to
deviate from it I flew underneat an overcast at that alt with my fin in
the clouds..


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Roger wrote:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:52:38 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken
-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training
pilot -- don't cross control stall on turn to final!
A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns,
even in twink flying, gee I wonder why.
It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was
Perfectly safe if not close to the ground and the pilot is
proficient
ant not just current.

a requirement for a pilot's license.
Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

The Practical Test Standard requires the
demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree
bank and a safe or recommended airspeed.

That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's
not going to be 2g in my plane.
2Gg turns are fun nor are they hazardous when not done close to the
ground. When I took Bo specific training the instructor started
talking me into a steep turn. I asked if it was OK to just roll into
it and go. I He said "OK", so I just rolled left and pulled. Coming
up on the proper heading he said now lets do one the other direction
where by I rolled to the right and pulled. This brought a laughing
comment, "You really like to do these things don't you?" My puzzled
"sure", brought the explanation that most of the Bo pilots would only
grudgingly do 45 degrees let alone 60. You should have heard them
complain when told the instructors would be blocking the yokes so
they couldn't use the ailerons when doing stalls.:-))

I've found few of newer pilots and instructors like 2G at 60 degrees
or the stalling characteristics of the Deb so when I go out to
practice it's only the "old timers" who go along.

When I took the PTS it was 60 degrees and 2Gs. By not going to 60
degrees in steep turns the students miss out on the different banking
tendencies/characteristics. I often think it should be put back to
that. There have been moments where I've been glad they did things
that way back then. One such moment was when a ultra light flying
far later than allowed popped out of the dark directly in front of me
when I was no more than a couple hundred yards (if that) from the end
of the runway. Another was on the VOR approach to MtPleasant where
you fly directly over the runway at 500 feet to the VOR to go missed
on 27. When the instructor's voice went up an octave and he said and
I quote..."What that...Oh, ****! Pull UP, Pull UP! I went full
power, stood the Deb on end and did a push over to level off that
left things floating. He never would tell me how close we came but
from his actions I'd say probably no more than a few feet. BTW I did
all of that under the hood. I mentioned to the CFI that I figured
had it been really close he'd have taken over. He said he figured
that I knew the limits of the plane and would react quicker than he
could even if he could see. He was right though, The urgency (I
couldeven feel him tense sitting next to me) told me that this should
be a maximum effort and not just a climb. Made me glad I use 120 for
approaches instead of 80 or 90 too:-))

Neither of these were things covered in primary training or the PTS.
They took a lot of time and practice getting to know the limits of
the Deb.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
I agree. I had to do 60 degree banked turns for my Private as well.


Sheesh. I can't remember what I had to do . I do remember spins, some
hood time and an engine failure on takeoff. I also remember filing and
putting in a cruising altitude of say, 3500 and then being so afraid to
deviate from it I flew underneat an overcast at that alt with my fin in
the clouds..


Bertie
A lot has changed since those days. If I remember right, the requirement
was for a 60 degree banked turn in both directions entering one from the
other within an altitude parameter either way of 50 feet. Just racking
my memory here but that sounds close.....and this was for the PRIVATE!!
:-))

--
Dudley Henriques

skym wrote:
I guess my original question was really "how much of a comfort
factor, if any, is a coordinated turn vs a slip or skid while turning
at that point in the approach?"

Your "comfort factor" widens as you gain experience through exposure.

As you fly each approach and actually see and feel how the airplane
responds in various situations you will begin to feel more comfortable.
One thing that will help you is to leave the aerodynamics thinking on
the ground. Do your theory between flights. Not doing this can result in
you over working the problem. Just sit back, fly the airplane, and pay
attention to what's happening as you do this. I think you'll find that
each approach will get better generally. You will have some plateaus
where it all seems to go to hell, but hang in there.

One thing about approaches. Keep your main attention outside the
airplane. Don't over concentrate on the panel. Do your instrument
checking quickly and peripherally as you scan the horizon and your
visual positioning on the approach. Don't get all hung up on what the
ADI is doing. Your main attention at pattern altitude on down should be
NOSE ATTITUDE and VISUAL POSITIONING. Once you get used to this, you are
shortening the list of items on your multi-tasking list and your comfort
zone will widen for you.




--
Dudley Henriques

On Mar 12, 7:14 pm, terry wrote:
On Mar 13, 9:14 am, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk At Wow Way

D0t C0m wrote:
"skym" wrote in message

...

While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was
going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to
final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as
possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/
spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep
the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and
not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct?
(Not that I intend to make it a practice.)

Instead of asking about keeping the ball centered, perhaps you should be
asking why you elected to flirt with a pilot error fatality by cranking and
yanking for the sake of a few style points... So what if you overshoot the
turn????

Note: as others are beating to death - stall speed doesn't change with bank.
Stall speed changes with increasing G (increasing lift). Increasing G comes
from pulling on the yoke/stick. Period. No pull, no G, no increase in stall.
More pull, more G, higher stall. Wings level, wings banked, wings upside
down - makes no difference.

so if i am doing a steep descending turn , I wont be pulling back on
the stick as much as a steep level turn,
hence less g ? This would seem to contradict others comments that
you pull the same no of g in a bank whether it is level
or descending. I am still confused.
Terry

In a coordinated descending turn, the inside wing is at a
higher AOA than the outside wing and will stall first. In a skidding
descending turn, the difference is even greater and is asking for big
trouble. In a slipping turn, the inside wing's AOA decreases and is
much closer to the AOA of the outside wing. Danger of wing-drop
stalling is lessened.
In a climbing turn, the outside wing is at a higher AOA and
will stall first.

I built a device that demonstrates this visually so that our
students could get a handle on it. I keep promising to post pictures
of it somewhere. Can someone suggest to this Internet Ignoramus where
a good spot would be for that?

Dan

I didn't know at the time about turning more than standard rate on the
coordinator, it was something I hadn't done when he requested it. The peg
is around 45 degrees or so. I was also watching my airspeed for decay while
maintaining level flight. And I know you aren't supposed to use the feeling
in your butt for instrument flight, but it I couldn't help it being a newbie
to instrument flight. I of course rely on the instruments when they don't
agree with my body.

The concept was probably good, because failures of turn and banks are a lot
more rare than gyros, and if I was confused I would give the coordinator
more weight in decision making than the gyros until I sorted it out because
of that fact.

This would have been about 8 years ago. Same instructor said he doesn't
recommend any private pilot candidate without doing spins, so 5th lesson did
left and right multi-turn spins which scared the crap out of me until I
figured out they were fun on about the 2nd one. I doubt there are that many
of the old school instructors left. I was also never allowed to use power
pre-solo after abeam the numbers to turn base.

I personally feel it prolonged how long it took me to solo, but once you
figure it out it is good.

Wingflaps
So, how do you do it in an IF test?
So, how do you do it in an IF test?

Cheers back again

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Roger wrote:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:52:38 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker"
wrote:

-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken
-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training
pilot -- don't cross control stall on turn to final!
A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns,
even in twink flying, gee I wonder why.
It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was
Perfectly safe if not close to the ground and the pilot is
proficient
ant not just current.

a requirement for a pilot's license.
Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

The Practical Test Standard requires the
demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree
bank and a safe or recommended airspeed.

That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's
not going to be 2g in my plane.
2Gg turns are fun nor are they hazardous when not done close to the
ground. When I took Bo specific training the instructor started
talking me into a steep turn. I asked if it was OK to just roll
into
it and go. I He said "OK", so I just rolled left and pulled. Coming
up on the proper heading he said now lets do one the other
direction
where by I rolled to the right and pulled. This brought a laughing
comment, "You really like to do these things don't you?" My puzzled
"sure", brought the explanation that most of the Bo pilots would
only
grudgingly do 45 degrees let alone 60. You should have heard them
complain when told the instructors would be blocking the yokes so
they couldn't use the ailerons when doing stalls.:-))

I've found few of newer pilots and instructors like 2G at 60
degrees
or the stalling characteristics of the Deb so when I go out to
practice it's only the "old timers" who go along.

When I took the PTS it was 60 degrees and 2Gs. By not going to 60
degrees in steep turns the students miss out on the different
banking
tendencies/characteristics. I often think it should be put back
to
that. There have been moments where I've been glad they did things
that way back then. One such moment was when a ultra light flying
far later than allowed popped out of the dark directly in front of
me
when I was no more than a couple hundred yards (if that) from the
end
of the runway. Another was on the VOR approach to MtPleasant
where
you fly directly over the runway at 500 feet to the VOR to go
missed
on 27. When the instructor's voice went up an octave and he said
and
I quote..."What that...Oh, ****! Pull UP, Pull UP! I went full
power, stood the Deb on end and did a push over to level off that
left things floating. He never would tell me how close we came
but
from his actions I'd say probably no more than a few feet. BTW I
did
all of that under the hood. I mentioned to the CFI that I figured
had it been really close he'd have taken over. He said he figured
that I knew the limits of the plane and would react quicker than he
could even if he could see. He was right though, The urgency (I
couldeven feel him tense sitting next to me) told me that this
should
be a maximum effort and not just a climb. Made me glad I use 120
for
approaches instead of 80 or 90 too:-))

Neither of these were things covered in primary training or the
PTS.
They took a lot of time and practice getting to know the limits of
the Deb.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
I agree. I had to do 60 degree banked turns for my Private as well.


Sheesh. I can't remember what I had to do . I do remember spins, some
hood time and an engine failure on takeoff. I also remember filing
and
putting in a cruising altitude of say, 3500 and then being so afraid
to
deviate from it I flew underneat an overcast at that alt with my fin
in
the clouds..


Bertie
A lot has changed since those days. If I remember right, the
requirement
was for a 60 degree banked turn in both directions entering one from
the
other within an altitude parameter either way of 50 feet. Just racking
my memory here but that sounds close.....and this was for the
PRIVATE!!

I really can't remember, but I do remember being surprised when
instructing years later that i learned that many considered 45 deg to be
steep, so I must have learned at 60 degrees as well.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Roger wrote:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:52:38 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker"
wrote:
-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken
-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training
pilot -- don't cross control stall on turn to final!
A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns,
even in twink flying, gee I wonder why.
It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was
Perfectly safe if not close to the ground and the pilot is
proficient
ant not just current.

a requirement for a pilot's license.
Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

The Practical Test Standard requires the
demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree
bank and a safe or recommended airspeed.

That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's
not going to be 2g in my plane.
2Gg turns are fun nor are they hazardous when not done close to the
ground. When I took Bo specific training the instructor started
talking me into a steep turn. I asked if it was OK to just roll
into
it and go. I He said "OK", so I just rolled left and pulled. Coming
up on the proper heading he said now lets do one the other
direction
where by I rolled to the right and pulled. This brought a laughing
comment, "You really like to do these things don't you?" My puzzled
"sure", brought the explanation that most of the Bo pilots would
only
grudgingly do 45 degrees let alone 60. You should have heard them
complain when told the instructors would be blocking the yokes so
they couldn't use the ailerons when doing stalls.:-))

I've found few of newer pilots and instructors like 2G at 60
degrees
or the stalling characteristics of the Deb so when I go out to
practice it's only the "old timers" who go along.

When I took the PTS it was 60 degrees and 2Gs. By not going to 60
degrees in steep turns the students miss out on the different
banking
tendencies/characteristics. I often think it should be put back
to
that. There have been moments where I've been glad they did things
that way back then. One such moment was when a ultra light flying
far later than allowed popped out of the dark directly in front of
me
when I was no more than a couple hundred yards (if that) from the
end
of the runway. Another was on the VOR approach to MtPleasant
where
you fly directly over the runway at 500 feet to the VOR to go
missed
on 27. When the instructor's voice went up an octave and he said
and
I quote..."What that...Oh, ****! Pull UP, Pull UP! I went full
power, stood the Deb on end and did a push over to level off that
left things floating. He never would tell me how close we came
but
from his actions I'd say probably no more than a few feet. BTW I
did
all of that under the hood. I mentioned to the CFI that I figured
had it been really close he'd have taken over. He said he figured
that I knew the limits of the plane and would react quicker than he
could even if he could see. He was right though, The urgency (I
couldeven feel him tense sitting next to me) told me that this
should
be a maximum effort and not just a climb. Made me glad I use 120
for
approaches instead of 80 or 90 too:-))

Neither of these were things covered in primary training or the
PTS.
They took a lot of time and practice getting to know the limits of
the Deb.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
I agree. I had to do 60 degree banked turns for my Private as well.

Sheesh. I can't remember what I had to do . I do remember spins, some
hood time and an engine failure on takeoff. I also remember filing
and
putting in a cruising altitude of say, 3500 and then being so afraid
to
deviate from it I flew underneat an overcast at that alt with my fin
in
the clouds..


Bertie
A lot has changed since those days. If I remember right, the
requirement
was for a 60 degree banked turn in both directions entering one from
the
other within an altitude parameter either way of 50 feet. Just racking
my memory here but that sounds close.....and this was for the
PRIVATE!!

I really can't remember, but I do remember being surprised when
instructing years later that i learned that many considered 45 deg to be
steep, so I must have learned at 60 degrees as well.

Bertie

I'm sure you did.

The problem with 45 degrees of bank is that it teaches little about
control in steep banked attitudes such as shallowing the bank before
raising the nose in a nose low condition caused by over bank.

I've never liked the 45 degree parameter and have always recommended to
instructors that they teach bank control all the way out to 60 degrees
regardless of the requirement.
This entire movement to make flying more "comfortable" for the masses to
sell airplanes and push aviation by lowering the requirements has been
flawed from the beginning in my opinion.

If I've flown with one pilot I've flown with a hundred who, when put in
a 60 degree banked turn with the nose going down and being told to raise
the nose, pulled instead of
shallowing out the bank first, tightening up the nose low condition.
It's a shame really, and I hate to see it.

--
Dudley Henriques