Hard Deck

In my informal and formal polling, among people who fly contests, safety is far down on the list.

The major safety concern is that "some other bozo will run in to me," hence you can get some interest about midairs, including flarm and procedures to help avoid midairs like not setting out and return assigned tasks. Note that its always the other bozo. Midairs are far, far, down the list of actual accident causes but by far the main -- if not only -- concern of most pilots. Other refinements of the rules for safety, removing points incentives for risks, such as high finishes are down in the tar and feather and drive you out of town realm of unpopularity.

Complaining about complexity is very high on the list, until you propose measures that would actually help complexity. Eliminate the complex graduated penalties? Well, we don't like complexity but not that one. And so it goes..

John Cochrane

The CD can do this...........the CD can do that..........how many of you guys have paid you'd dues and spent a week in the CD barel? I have CD'd 3 nats and more regionals than I can remember and believe me your good old CD's plate is overflowing. He's already reviewing motorglider traces to see if they motored directly to the designated release area and didn't just motor around looking for the best thermal in town. He's reviewing all traces on a thunderstorm day to see if anyone logged a little unauthorized IFR time .............yes, this happened! I reported it, but nothing was done and by the end of the week at least 4 guys did it..........I know because they told me they iced up!
Sorry about my little rant, I feel much better now,
JJ

On Tuesday, 30 January 2018 18:26:23 UTC-7, wrote:
The CD can do this...........the CD can do that..........how many of you guys have paid you'd dues and spent a week in the CD barel? I have CD'd 3 nats and more regionals than I can remember and believe me your good old CD's plate is overflowing. He's already reviewing motorglider traces to see if they motored directly to the designated release area and didn't just motor around looking for the best thermal in town. He's reviewing all traces on a thunderstorm day to see if anyone logged a little unauthorized IFR time .............yes, this happened! I reported it, but nothing was done and by the end of the week at least 4 guys did it..........I know because they told me they iced up!
Sorry about my little rant, I feel much better now,
JJ

Thanks JJ, I posted earlier a similar comment, The CD can do this, the scorer can check this and manually do this, the organizers can create a SUA file etc.

If it cannot be automated and simply implemented then it will be a burden to the contest folks.

KISS please

At 18:02 30 January 2018, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 8:40:35 AM UTC-8, Karl
Striedieck wrote:
As for the worry that a low save gives the pilot an advantage on
the
scor=
e sheet, forget it. Such events eat up a lot of time and result in a
back
p=
age score.=20
=20
Karl Striedieck

On a day when most people can stay high, true. On a day when
only a few
mak=
e it home, not true. In a contest where that day determines the
winner, a
s=
ingle low save can determine the winner.=20

That's why a scoring change might be able to accomplish the same
goal:
thro=
wing out the low day score, or the high and low score of each
contestant.
C=
onsistency counts for more, and would influence behavior some
too - if a
gu=
y is at 500 ft and struggling he will just think, "I'll throw this one
out"=
and execute a safe landing.=20

I'd like to think there is some middle ground between complete
proscribed
f=
light and the notion that making it back with all your blood inside
and
you=
r heart still beating is defined as a safe flight.


George Moffat and the sailing crowd have always proposed to drop
both the individual pilot's best and worst days because "that's what
they do in sailing". You might be able to do that in a Grand Prix
format where each day counts the same. I don't see how we can do
that as long as we have devalued days. A pilot can be a day winner
on a very difficult 600 point day, and be forced to drop his
day win because all of the other contest days weren't devalued,
even though he had another day where he only got 850 points
compared to that other day's winner?

Please tell me how you propose to make that fair?? I can't see it
being done without a total overhaul of the scoring system.

RO

On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 3:26:01 PM UTC-8, John Cochrane wrote:
In my informal and formal polling, among people who fly contests, safety is far down on the list.


But those are preselected as the ones who have accepted the risk. Ask the ones who don't fly contests why they don't.

The rules aren't any more complicated than many other sports. Certainly not as complicated as sailing. The scoring on the other hand is pegged at the complex end of sports. So, yes, a scoring overhaul seems like a good idea.

At 18:02 30 January 2018, jfitch wrote:

On a day when most people can stay high, true. On a day when
only a few make it home, not true. In a contest where that day
determines the winner, a single low save can determine the winner.

The 1958 WGC Open Class was won on a day like that, except that
E.G. Haase (as relayed personally to me) made a string of very
low saves (albeit all over very landable terrain) and was thus able
to tiptoe his way to victory that day. He was then able to defend his
lead until the contest ended. It was a brilliant flight, not luck. Some
pilots are just better at that kind of flying than others. For example,
in Belgium, they have a maximum altitude of 3,000' due to
controlled airspace over the entire country. Those guys fly low a
lot.

The 1985 WGC STD Class was also won that way on a very difficult
day where a lot of us landed out. LB found a small thermal at
around 100 meters, (possibly marked by a team mate?) which
eventually got him high enough to get back home. This gave
him enough of a lead to win the contest. Leo later even wrote an
article about "the thermal that won him the WGC".

I am sure that there are more examples of this.... I am just
personally familiar with these two right off the top of my head.

Contests are most often decided on the difficult days. In general,
the performance on those days separates the best from the rest.
If one just wants to race on the nice days, it seems like an OLC
camp would be the place to go. If you want to pick a national
champion who will have any kind of a shot at being competitive
at a WGC, then one can't eliminate the difficult days.

RO

Originally Posted by krasw

No one circles at 300ft, that is just bs. At that altitude you are on short final for landing. Don't believe everything you read folks. If someone has done it once and survive, congrats, please do not pass the story on.

They do and they aren't always proud of it. Lessons were learned by more than just the pilot

:-) Colin

https://www.dropbox.com/s/atfnpzvs20...c0al1.IGC?dl=0

On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 9:51:44 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:

But those are preselected as the ones who have accepted the risk. Ask the ones who don't fly contests why they don't.

The reason I don't enter a race at the local ski hill is "I don't know how to do that safely". It's nothing to do with the sport, which although clearly dangerous, is "safe enough" in the hands of the appropriately skilled. If there isn't a large element of this in the responses you have summarized... there probably should be. Not all racing venues are beginner friendly..

There are many ways that you could create a beginner friendly racing environment in e.g. the Sierras, and you have suggested a few yourself. If anyone is inclined to do this, why not give it a try on a non-sanctioned basis? There's no need to change the rules for the rest of the world for this.

Or perhaps your friends just aren't interested in racing.

Evan Ludeman / T8

On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 9:51:44 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:

But those are preselected as the ones who have accepted the risk. Ask the ones who don't fly contests why they don't.

Really, and a hard deck would make them come? If safety is a concern for some folks they should set their own minimums and participate. No one forces anyone to take risks. During one National contest I withdrew because I was not willing to break my own minimums. Let's be real here.

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 7:48:26 AM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 9:51:44 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:

But those are preselected as the ones who have accepted the risk. Ask the ones who don't fly contests why they don't.

Really, and a hard deck would make them come? If safety is a concern for some folks they should set their own minimums and participate. No one forces anyone to take risks. During one National contest I withdrew because I was not willing to break my own minimums. Let's be real here.

I completely agree
Well said
UH