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#11
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STF question
The 302 like all current instruments does calculate altitude required
correctly. If you put in Mc2, and fly at the Mc2 speed, and with steady wind and no lift/sink, you'll get to the airport. The 302 does not adjust the Mc setting for headwind / tailwind, nor does it adjust it for strength of the next thermal for that matter. That's up to the pilot. The adjustment to Mc setting for headwind/tailwind for glide to a point is rather minor, typically less than one knot for most winds we encounter in thermic cross country gliding (20 kts or less). A headwind is like shifting the whole polar to the left, a tailwind is like shifting it to the right. Thus, you can visualize the effect of headwind/tailwind on the usual polar diagram by drawing a tangent to the polar from a point that is shifted up from the origin by expected lift, and horizontally from the origin by the wind speed. You can then see the correct Mc setting to put in the instrument by where this new line crosses the vertical axis. Modern glider polars are so flat, that this tangency line is also very flat, so a large horizontal displacement corresponds to a very small vertical displacement. If your glide angle is 30:1, then each vertical knot of displacement correponds to 30 horizontal knots of displacement -- a 30 knot headwind only changes your Mc setting by one knot! What about the "half the wind velocity" rule we parrot for the FAA? In the same modern glider, small chages in Mc setting give rise to rather large changes in airspeed. One knot more Mc setting is about 10 knots more speed, so the ballpark is right. (Try giving the above answer to your FAA examiner on your next rating instead!) The adjustment to Mc setting for rounding a turnpoint in headwind or tailwind is considerably larger, because now you're not just gliding to a point and thermaling with a headwind, you are thinking about thermaling with a headwind vs. a tailwind. I wrote a "contest corner" article in soaring magazine, together with a little chart you can bring along in the cockpit in Oct 2006, it's on my webpage http://faculty.chicagogsb.edu/john.c...d_downwind.mht End of theory class. When's the lab session already?? John Cochrane |
#12
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STF question
Dan G wrote:
On Mar 15, 3:29 am, Ramy wrote: On Mar 14, 6:51 pm, Gary Emerson wrote: toad wrote: Standard STF theory says that the head/tail wind does not matter for cruise flight. Does wind influence best speed for final glide ? Todd Smith 3S It's two separate issues. Speed to fly AND altitude required. Speed to fly is NOT dependent on HW/TW. HW/TW will affect Altitude required. HW/TW also effect speed to fly to achive best glide over the ground. The rule of thumb is to add half the wind speed to the best glide speed. I thought it was add half the windspeed for a headwind, but take off half for a tailwind? Or is it had half whichever direction you're heading?! The approximate answer is "Add some fraction of the headwind". Someone suggested one half; I generally increase the MC about 1 knot, which has a similar effect. For a tailwind, the best distance will be achieved by flying somewhere between the max L/D speed and the minimum sink speed, so I set MC to zero (best L/D). If it's a really strong tailwind, I'll fly slower than it indicates (closer to minimum sink). In the olden days, I could rotate the MC ring to a negative number, but my 302 doesn't allow that! -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly * Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4 * New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org |
#13
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STF question
On Mar 14, 10:14 pm, Tony Verhulst wrote:
toad wrote: Standard STF theory says that the head/tail wind does not matter for cruise flight. Does wind influence best speed for final glide ? If you're flying at 50 knots into a 50 knot headwind you'll make how much progress over the ground? Tony V Come on guys, the classic "cruise" speed to fly theory is designed to maximize average XC speed does not include headwind or tailwind, because the assumption is that the thermal drifts with the wind. This is the STF calculation programmed into all of our flight computers. If you want to achieve best L/D, then yes you have to include head/ tail wind. But if you are trying to achieve max XC speed, including final glide, then you don't include wind. This changes if you modify the assumption that a thernal drifts with the same speed as the wind. Todd Smith 3S |
#14
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STF question
To be fully precise, though at the risk of getting too arcane, I'll
point out that the "shift the polar" treatment for the effect of wind on STF only gives the true airspeed _component_in_the_direction_of_the_track. The true "airspeed to fly" also depends upon the cross-wind component of the wind, since one must crab to fly the desired track. The effect of this additional factor is typically small, less than 3 kts. In my previous example calculation I used a cross-wind component of zero to make things simpler. Jack |
#15
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STF question
The fact that the best speed to fly interthermal is independent of the
headwind-tailwind component confused me at first too, and for the same reason as one of the other posters. If your STF is 50 kts and you have a 50 kt HW, you'll make no distance. The problem is, flying faster than 50 kts (assuming it is the value predicted by MacCready's optimization) will actually blow you backward. Why? You make headway while flying, but when you stop to tank up before hitting the ground (an assumption in the MacCready model that is not often explicitly stated: you can find a thermal with the lift you've dialed in whenever you want it -- not very realistic!), you are blown backward at 50 kts due to the tilt of the thermal. Because you flew faster than optimal, you must tank up longer and are blown back more. When on final glide, the optimal speed to fly is different and clearly depends on the wind. It no longer depends on the speed of the "next" thermal, since there isn't one. It seems like a totally different optimization to me. Hope this helps. Martin |
#16
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STF question
On Mar 14, 8:29*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Mar 14, 6:51*pm, Gary Emerson wrote: toad wrote: Standard STF theory says that the head/tail wind does not matter for cruise flight. Does wind influence best speed for final glide ? Todd Smith 3S It's two separate issues. *Speed to fly AND altitude required. *Speed to fly is NOT dependent on HW/TW. *HW/TW will affect Altitude required. HW/TW also effect speed to fly to achive best glide over the ground. The rule of thumb is to add half the wind speed to the best glide speed. I am also not sure it doesn't matter for cruise flight. If you have a 50 knots head wind you will not make any progress unless you fly very fast. From what I understand from cambridge manuals they do not take the wind into account for speed to fly. Ramy |
#17
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STF question
On Mar 14, 8:29*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Mar 14, 6:51*pm, Gary Emerson wrote: toad wrote: Standard STF theory says that the head/tail wind does not matter for cruise flight. Does wind influence best speed for final glide ? Todd Smith 3S It's two separate issues. *Speed to fly AND altitude required. *Speed to fly is NOT dependent on HW/TW. *HW/TW will affect Altitude required. HW/TW also effect speed to fly to achive best glide over the ground. The rule of thumb is to add half the wind speed to the best glide speed. I am also not sure it doesn't matter for cruise flight. If you have a 50 knots head wind you will not make any progress unless you fly very fast. From what I understand from cambridge manuals they do not take the wind into account for speed to fly. Ramy To get the MC setting for best glide distance into a head wind just rotate the MC knob to the setting that gives the minimum required altitude. Unless the wind is constant as you descend you will have to keep adjusting the MC as the low point shifts. Andy |
#18
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STF question
On Mar 15, 7:09*pm, wrote:
When on final glide, the optimal speed to fly is different and clearly depends on the wind. It no longer depends on the speed of the "next" thermal, since there isn't one. It seems like a totally different optimization to me. To determine the "optimum" speed to fly you need to state the objective. The speed or MC setting to achive max glide distance may not be the speed or MC setting that gives the shortest time to the destination. For best speed there is an interaction between thermal strength and MC setting even though the final glide does not end with a thermal climb. The MC setting is based on the strength of the thermal you are currently using to reach final glide altitude. The combination of wind, thermal strength, and distance to go, will determine not only the final glide MC setting but also when to leave the last thermal. Of course you can forget all that if you practice the start at zero MC and bump up final glide technique. Andy |
#19
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STF question
I must retract my previous statements regarding wind effect on on the
"cruise" STF, i.e the true airspeed to fly to achieve the fastest speed over the ground between two ground points. Further thought, and working through a specific example to convince myself, tells me that airspeed is _independent_ of a head/tailwind. The way I now think of it is that the "optimal" interthermal-glide airspeed produces the fastest obtainable "cruise" airspeed, i.e. with no altitude loss over a thermalling/gliding cycle (for the given thermal strength and glider polar) - a wind affects the resultant groundspeed but not that optimal value through the air. This means it is possible to have a wind for which no forward progress can be made without a net loss of altitude. I now believe I've made an incorrect assumption somewhere in script I wrote to predict "optimal" speeds over a track (most likely neglecting the thermal drift with the wind) and will need to correct that. Jack |
#20
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STF question
So to be clear, when not on final glide, to achieve the best speed-
over-ground the head/tail/cross wind should be ignored when determining inter-thermal cruise speed? Dan |
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