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#141
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Is this a troll?
Personally I can't believe a UK basic instructor is saying this publicly. Are you still giving ab-initio lessons? Perhaps you should chant this, or something like WULFSTALL, in the circuit and think about what each item is and what the implications are if you don't do each one. You seem to already know about one, but the others are so embarassing they can kill you. Doubtless you do this appropriately during your annual club checks, but lack of clarity of what each item reflects or the need is disturbing. Please re-read your post, print a copy and hand carry it to your CFI at Rattlesden. Frank Whiteley Colorado "Chris Reed" wrote in message ... I quite like the "lookout" element of USTALL (though I don't actually chant the checklist to myself on circuit). What I use it for is a reminder that, in addition to my normal lookout, I also need to pay attention to the other side of the circuit, look for aircraft on long, straight in approaches, and look at what's happening on the ground. This is a different mode of lookout to XC or local soaring, and I usually find myself muttering "lookout" at some point to remind me of the change of mode. But I take the point - if the pilot doesn't lookout except in response to a checklist, I'd like to be in a different part of the sky. S (straps or speed?) is pretty useless on downwind, T (trim) ditto, and A (airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in trouble, though if I flew a flapped glider or had the UC lever on the same side as the airbrake (LS4s excepted) I'd add a mental note to check which lever I intended to use for approach control. U is quite clear in my mind, having landed wheels up once already, and hoping not to do it again. "Ian Johnston" wrote in message news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-zikdWvOGpoiF@localhost... You should see some of the downwind checklists/mnemonics in use in the UK. They include things like "trim" - for people who wouldn't normally think of using the trimmer, I presume - and, most bizarrely of all, "lookout". I'm not sure that I want to share the sky with people who need a mnemonic to remind them to look out... |
#142
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On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 15:39:37 UTC, "Chris Reed"
wrote: : This is a different mode of lookout : to XC or local soaring, and I usually find myself muttering "lookout" at : some point to remind me of the change of mode. Good point. And the lookout I find useful to remember is for the bozo making a straight in approach, so I have a good hard stare downwind just before I turn final. : S (straps or speed?) is pretty useless on downwind, T (trim) ditto You illustarte perfectly one of the problems with long mnemonics (and I have had WWULFSSTALL recommended to me. Seriously.), which is that it becomes hard to remember what each letter stands for, and tryting to remember is a distraction. It's not exactly a stage of the flight with lots of time for contemplation. : , and A : (airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in trouble, I use it to crack 'em open and check that they work. I haven't had them frozen closed yet, but it has happened to two different friend of mine (comes of flying in the frozen northern wastes) and while I am perfectly happy to sideslip to round out - cue long, lomg, thread from American cousins differentiating between "forward slips" and "side slips" - I'd rather discover that I need to as early as possible. : U is quite clear in my mind, having landed wheels up once already, and : hoping not to do it again. I was taught to lower the wheel as soon as I decided to land, even if that was at 12,000', so U is a check, not an action. I wonder how many people get used to gabbling "Undercarriagefixedonthisaircraft" (as they gabble "Flapsnotfittedonthisaircraft" during CBSIFTCB (with a few E's thrown in if you want)) and continue to do so even when it's not true... Ian |
#143
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On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 16:16:30 UTC, "F.L. Whiteley"
wrote: : Personally I can't believe a UK basic instructor is saying this publicly. : Are you still giving ab-initio lessons? Perhaps you should chant this, or : something like WULFSTALL, in the circuit and think about what each item is : and what the implications are if you don't do each one. There is a lot of honest debate about how many of these are truly necessary. For example, is your "W" for wind? If so, it should have been checked a hell of a long time before trying to join the "circuit". And if it has been, and the circuit planned to take account of it, why specifically check again? Doesn't the practice of good airmanship imply that this will be done anyway? Similarly with T for Trim. Surely anyone who has been reasonably trained with use the trimmer without thinking about it for any long term change in speed? Why make it a separate item in a check list at a time when maximum attention should be gven to lookout? I have had experienced full cat instructors tell me that they didn't advocate any down wind checks at all, per se, as they claimed that every single one should be a consequence of good airmanship. I don't go that far myself, but the only ones which is seems to me might be seens as circuit extras are Undercarriage (check only, should be down already), Speed, Airbrakes (in case frozen). Everything else should have been done before or is plain bleeding obvious. Do you really, truly, know people who wouldn't check the intended landing area unless they had a mnemonic? If so, should they be flying? [I think I know one, and I don't think he should be.] Ian PS If the F is for Flaps for the small proportion of gliders with 'em, what about the other W for Water? Mind you, I had one instructor who used the F for "Fag (extinguish and chuck out of DV panel)"... -- |
#144
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Hi Chris
I quite like the "lookout" element of USTALL (though I don't actually chant the checklist to myself on circuit). What I use it for is a reminder that, in addition to my normal lookout, I also need to pay attention to the other side of the circuit, look for aircraft on long, straight in approaches, and look at what's happening on the ground. This is a different mode of lookout to XC or local soaring, and I usually find myself muttering "lookout" at some point to remind me of the change of mode. You are right in that it should be automatic to be scanning the sky, but that is not what I was taught the "lookout" item was for. "Lookout" reminds you to look in different places - you are going to land, check that the ground condition is good - runway clear, no cars/ gliders/ kids/ microlights or cows. YOu should already be looking for conflicting aerial traffic. But I take the point - if the pilot doesn't lookout except in response to a checklist, I'd like to be in a different part of the sky. S (straps or speed?) is pretty useless on downwind, T (trim) ditto, and A (airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in trouble, though if I flew a flapped glider or had the UC lever on the same side as the airbrake (LS4s excepted) I'd add a mental note to check which lever I intended to use for approach control. Look at the statistics of experienced pilots damaging aircraft and themselves because they tried to adjust their descent rate with the flaps or worse undercarriage. Maybe the hoary old pilots with thousands of hours always know they have their hand on the blue lever when they want to. Me- I still find it useful to consciously think "what glider am I in, OK put your hand on the airbrake lever, and crack them to be sure" Then I know I have my brakes sorted. Same thing with speed and trim, just helps to think explicitly about how fast you are landing. U is quite clear in my mind, having landed wheels up once already, and hoping not to do it again. "Ian Johnston" wrote in message news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-zikdWvOGpoiF@localhost... You should see some of the downwind checklists/mnemonics in use in the UK. They include things like "trim" - for people who wouldn't normally think of using the trimmer, I presume - and, most bizarrely of all, "lookout". I'm not sure that I want to share the sky with people who need a mnemonic to remind them to look out... The trim thing is also a safety thing, high workload tends to result in people forgetting things like trim. Flying the circuit with some residual pressure on the stick can have interesting effects when you get distracted. Tends to happen after a long fast final glide - to me at any rate. More to the point what speed are you trimming for - are you sure it is right. It's a good discipline to use the checklist - much more important to understand why each item is there. If all you are doing is going "lookout - check I am looking out" you are wasting your time with the checklist. No personal slight intended, but as a general comment I have found that if I find there is a generally accepted practice in flying that one can't see the value of, it is important to find out why it has become generally accepted practice. Most glider pilots are not fools. (well with the possible exception of irrational desire for more span) Generally I have found good reasons for most of the habits and standards, even if they are not always entirely obvious. Ricardo Semler claims you should always ask Why? three times at least. Works for me. Bruce |
#145
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Ian Johnston wrote:
: , and A : (airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in trouble, I use it to crack 'em open and check that they work. I haven't had them frozen closed yet, but it has happened to two different friend of mine (comes of flying in the frozen northern wastes) I've also had them frozen shut, but another reason for checking them is to activate the gear warning if the gear isn't down and locked. That has warned me at least 3 times. -- Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA |
#146
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On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 19:00:35 UTC, Bruce Greeff
wrote: : It's a good discipline to use the checklist - much more important to understand : why each item is there. If all you are doing is going "lookout - check I am : looking out" you are wasting your time with the checklist. : : No personal slight intended, but as a general comment I have found that if I : find there is a generally accepted practice in flying that one can't see the : value of, it is important to find out why it has become generally accepted : practice. A good point. The difficulty comes from an inherent contradiction: if safety comes from considering your (ie one's) actions fully, surely accepting somebody else's checklist is quite the opposite? Not to mention the problem that - in the UK anyway - there is no genrally accepted practice. There are lots of different versions of the downwind check list - which should one use? Should it always be the longest possible? Personally, I think the best idea is to work out a personal check list, where each item appears as a result of thought and decision. And, of course, discussion with other pilots and instructors, intelligent reading of accident reports and so on. I use USTAL. U(ndercarriage) is there because I normally fly wooden gliders, and it reminds me to think about whether there is a skid there to use in extremis. It's a good time to rethink my target S(peed). T(rim) is pointless, I reckon, but I can't forget it, damn it. A(irbrakes) might freeze shut and L(anding area) is my cue to make sure that I have Plans A, B and C clear in my mind. I don't waste time reminding myself that I don't have F(laps) or W(ater), and I've thought about (W)ind long, long before. And I don't mutter L(ookout) to myself because it might distract me from the important business of looking out. Ian PS And why on earth do we, before launch, check the controls before making sure that we're within the weight limits for the glider? |
#147
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"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message ... Ian Johnston wrote: I've also had them frozen shut, but another reason for checking them is to activate the gear warning if the gear isn't down and locked. That has warned me at least 3 times. Damn good point! Also, it allows you to check that your hand is on the right handle (think Blanik) and also, there is a tiny possibility of assemetric spoiler deployment (have seen it once), something best delt with at altitude. Vaughn |
#148
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"Ian Johnston" wrote in message news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-V8pRq3LwYqPX@localhost... Similarly with T for Trim. Surely anyone who has been reasonably trained with use the trimmer without thinking about it for any long term change in speed? Why make it a separate item in a check list at a time when maximum attention should be gven to lookout? Ian PS If the F is for Flaps for the small proportion of gliders with 'em, what about the other W for Water? Mind you, I had one instructor who used the F for "Fag (extinguish and chuck out of DV panel)"... -- I tend to set trim a bit nose heavy for the landing pattern. That way if my attention is diverted from airspeed control for a second of two, at least the glider will want to increase airspeed on its own. That's a different use of trim than the usual trimming for the exact airspeed. The way I think some pilots may get into trouble is if the trim is set for thermalling while scratching for that last thermal but then they give up and turn in to land, and forget to re-trim, that leaves the glider trimmed a bit nose up for the normal pattern speed. If their attention is diverted, the airspeed may drop toward stall. Bill Daniels |
#149
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At 05:42 04 September 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Nyal Williams wrote: At 18:24 01 September 2004, Chris Ocallaghan wrote: I'd always assumed there were two factors in choosing a pattern speed. First, safety, thus the +5 for turbulence. The other was to place the glider at best speed to fly. That way if you have to put the spoilers away, you are guaranteed to cover the maximum distance. If I recall, the simple formula for best speed was best l/d speed plus 1/2 the headwind. Don't recall the second ever being explained though. Just seemed to fit. It appears that if you draw a tangent to your glider's polar beginning, not at zero, but at any given headwind speed, the line will touch the polar at a point that is best L/D plus half that headwind. I was under the impression it was added to give you a margin for gusts and turbulence, which are usually less than the average wind speed. The 'half' was likely chosen empirically, as something that was adequate almost all the time. -- Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly Eric, Chris already accounted for the safety factor (gusts and turbulence) with his statement about plus 5 knots. His second factor was best speed to fly if you have to close spoilers and need the guaranteed best speed to fly for maximum distance. My answer was to that part of his statement. One might add another 5 knots for the gusts, etc., if desired. |
#150
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The current BGA instuctors manual does not recommend
the use of 'downwind checks' or the use of a mnemonic for pre landing checks. As soon as a pilot decides to land the glider should be configured for landing. With the exception of the RAFGSA, who you would think would know better, (RAF pilots are restricted in the number of touch and goes they can do because of the danger of automatic response to checks) this is what should be taught. The big problem with 'challenge and response' checklists where the challenge is chanted automatically is that the response tends to become automatic too. Given that most two seat traning gliders in the uk have a fixed undercarriage, do not carry water and have no flaps large numbers of students happily chant Water - not carried, Undercarriage - fixed, Loose articles - stowed Flaps - not fitted. This is fine until they fly a glider which carries water, is fitted with a retractable undercarriage and has flaps. In moments of stress, when it is all going wrong they can revert to their early days when they did not have these extras. Personally I would rather rely on good airmanship to configure the glider correctly for the phase of flight intended, and teach that than rely on a chant which can become automatically wrong. WULF checks as they were are out. Some bright wag once told me that they were W Wheel down and locked, Undercariage - down, Landing gear - extended and Firestones - out of the bay. :-) At 16:36 04 September 2004, F.L. Whiteley wrote: Is this a troll? Personally I can't believe a UK basic instructor is saying this publicly. Are you still giving ab-initio lessons? Perhaps you should chant this, or something like WULFSTALL, in the circuit and think about what each item is and what the implications are if you don't do each one. You seem to already know about one, but the others are so embarassing they can kill you. Doubtless you do this appropriately during your annual club checks, but lack of clarity of what each item reflects or the need is disturbing. Please re-read your post, print a copy and hand carry it to your CFI at Rattlesden. Frank Whiteley Colorado 'Chris Reed' wrote in message ... I quite like the 'lookout' element of USTALL (though I don't actually chant the checklist to myself on circuit). What I use it for is a reminder that, in addition to my normal lookout, I also need to pay attention to the other side of the circuit, look for aircraft on long, straight in approaches, and look at what's happening on the ground. This is a different mode of lookout to XC or local soaring, and I usually find myself muttering 'lookout' at some point to remind me of the change of mode. But I take the point - if the pilot doesn't lookout except in response to a checklist, I'd like to be in a different part of the sky. S (straps or speed?) is pretty useless on downwind, T (trim) ditto, and A (airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in trouble, though if I flew a flapped glider or had the UC lever on the same side as the airbrake (LS4s excepted) I'd add a mental note to check which lever I intended to use for approach control. U is quite clear in my mind, having landed wheels up once already, and hoping not to do it again. 'Ian Johnston' wrote in message news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-zikdWvOGpoiF@localhost... You should see some of the downwind checklists/mnemonics in use in the UK. They include things like 'trim' - for people who wouldn't normally think of using the trimmer, I presume - and, most bizarrely of all, 'lookout'. I'm not sure that I want to share the sky with people who need a mnemonic to remind them to look out... |
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