We Are All Spaniards

On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:57:24 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:

However, I will argue that the reality of terrorism can be crushed to a
large degree. Madrid is a wonderful case in point -- did you see the
demonstrations today? Millions of Spaniards have now come to hate and
despise the terrorists worse than ever before -- a reaction that is
diametrically opposed to what the terrorists sought.

This already happened before (in similar relative numbers to the attack) in
Spain. What are you trying to tell us? There is nothing new to it (this
does not mean that it was not cruel and can be played down).

Jay, what so you know about Spanish history?

#m

--
A far-reaching proposal from the FBI (...) would require all broadband
Internet providers, including cable modem and DSL companies, to rewire
their networks to support easy wiretapping by police.
http://news.com.com/2100-1028-5172948.html

you could spend every dollar in the world on fighting terrorism (just like
the "drug war") and you won't wipe it out.


Why not?

Because it is a TACTIC, not an ENTITY.
There is nothing to "wipe out".











www.Rosspilot.com

"Rosspilot" wrote in message
...

Because it is a TACTIC, not an ENTITY.
There is nothing to "wipe out".


Tactics cannot be defeated?

Because it is a TACTIC, not an ENTITY.
There is nothing to "wipe out".


Tactics cannot be defeated?

No. You can defeat the ENTITY that is using a particular tactic in a specific
instance. But you cannot defeat the tactic, since it can be used again and
again.


www.Rosspilot.com

Hi Jay,

I don't see "hunting them down and killing them" as either feasible
or
effective. For every one you kill, there are 10,000 more
waiting to take his place with greater fervor and comittment.

Well, Lee, I understand that the POTENTIAL for terrorism will always
be with
us. That is a sad fact of life.

Yes.

However, I will argue that the reality of terrorism can be crushed to
a
large degree.

It can and should be be fought, whether it can be crushed by force
alone I dispute that.

Madrid is a wonderful case in point -- did you see the
demonstrations today? Millions of Spaniards have now come to hate
and
despise the terrorists worse than ever before

Yes.

-- a reaction that is
diametrically opposed to what the terrorists sought.

No, not at all. They know and even relish the fact, that they are hated
for what they do.

When it becomes obvious that their barbaric tactics have accomplished
precisely nothing

What makes you think that this would be their asessment of
accomplishment? Do you really think they expected people to come over
and bow to Islam as a result of terrorist attacks? Face it, both 9/11
and Madrid were a tremendous success to them. They destroyed what they
hate and caused tremendous grieve to people they consider to have done
them great harm. And as added bonus they are convinced that they will
be rewarded for what they did in the afterlife. What else could they
wish for?

-- AND they are picked off, one by one, and are jailed or
dead -- then (and only then) will terrorism cease to be a significant
threat.

No, not at all. These - should I even call them human beings - have
reached a state of hatred that makes them practically imune against any
reasoning. It makes no difference whatsoever to them, if they are
"picked off one by one" or jailed or dead, as long as in their death
they can wreck havoc and take many more infidels with them.

To think otherwise plays completely into the terrorist's hands.

It is very important to understand the way these sick minds are
working, and how the reasoning you put forward just doesn't occur to
them. Otherwise you arrive at false conclusions about effectiveness of
any considered countermeasures.

Yes, we all of the free societies must stand together to fight this
threat. But to believe that the threat of terrorism can be overcome by
increasing security and military action more and more will lead to the
destruction of precisely what we want to defend, the free society. Some
people have said that in a way Al Quaida has already won in the sad
sense, that much of the freedom that the US stood for (and freedom is
what these people hate most) in the past has vanished already. From
what I read on this newsgroup about TFRs and other ever increasing
restrictions on GA anyway.

regards,
Friedrich

--
for personal email please remove "entfernen." from my adress

Jay, what so you know about Spanish history?

Well, with a minor (that's a secondary college degree, in case that doesn't
translate) in history (albeit 24 years ago), I suspect I know enough to get
me through this discussion.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Tactics cannot be defeated?

No. You can defeat the ENTITY that is using a particular tactic in a
specific
instance. But you cannot defeat the tactic, since it can be used again and
again.


Maybe this will help explain it, Steven . . .

Let's say your favorite football team uses a "nickel defense" . . . a tactic.

An opposing team figures out how to beat it, and in so doing, they win the
game.

They have defeated your team (the entity), but have not "wiped out" the nickel
defense, as it can be used again and again against other teams, on other days.


www.Rosspilot.com

Some
people have said that in a way Al Quaida has already won in the sad
sense, that much of the freedom that the US stood for (and freedom is
what these people hate most) in the past has vanished already.

That's nonsense. Let's not play up the hyperbole *too* much, okay?

Bush-haters would have you (and everyone else) believe that our basic
freedoms have been infringed upon in some demonic way, in order to root out
Osama, and that America has already lost the war on terror. Nothing could
be further from the truth.

Let's step back for a moment, take a deep breath, and analyze what has
really changed in our day-to-day lives:

1. We now have to arrive at the airport 2 hours early when we fly
commercially. (Formerly it was 1 hour.)
2. TFRs pop up occasionally when the President travels.
3. Ah, um, hmm.... *Surely* there must be *something* else?

Not. Precisely NOTHING of consequence has changed. Those first two items
impact a tiny, tiny percentage of our society. 99% of Americans don't
notice any difference between pre- and post-9/11 America -- because there
ARE no meaningful changes.

Behind the scenes, "power-to-investigate" kind of stuff *has* changed -- but
these don't effect most people in any but the most peripheral way. And most
of THAT impact is philosophical.

Yes, we all of the free societies must stand together to fight this
threat. But to believe that the threat of terrorism can be overcome by
increasing security and military action more and more will lead to the
destruction of precisely what we want to defend, the free society.

I take comfort from the fact that we were able to beat the Japanese in World
War II -- perhaps the single most warped, hateful, suicidal society in the
history of the world -- and eventually become allies with them. Hell, if
*that* can happen, anything can.

In this war, the trick is to do PRECISELY what Bush has been doing -- fight
terrorists where *they* live. If that means Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, or
the entire Middle East, well, that scenario sure beats waiting until the
*******s put bombs on trains in Chicago, or kill a busload of school kids in
Des Moines.

Bottom line: When you're rooting out an insect infestation, you don't just
kill the roaches in your kitchen -- you go after the nest.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I bet the British at the time would have disagreed with you. I am certain
they believed the American rebels / freedom fighters were terrorists.

Just as they believed that the Israeli freedom fighters were terrorists
in 1948.

Just as the they believe the IRA are terrorists...

Basically, when history finds a band of rebels or oppressed people who
fought their way to freedom, they war is called a War of Independence.

When they were suppressed, the war is called a rebellion, an uprising, or
a failed coup-de-tat...

The biggest difference that I can see is that the war for American
Independence took place in America. The war for Israeli independence took
place in Israel. The war for Irish independence takes place in Ireland.
The war for Indian independence took place in India.

The modern-day Arab terrorists hide in the corners of Islamic nations
like Iraq, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan and attack countries like
Israel, America, and Spain.

Perhaps the agenda of modern-day terrorists is not as clear as the agenda
of the Independence fighters who fought for independence and control of
their own countries...

Or, worse yet, perhaps the AGENDA is pretty clear, but the coutries they
are fighting for control of are not...



"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ink.net:


"S Green" wrote in message
...

After all were not the founding fathers terrorists seeking to
overthrow the legitimate government?



Seeking to overthrow the legitimate government? Yes. Terrorists? No.

"Teacherjh" wrote:
Realistially? None.
[snip]
Think of it this way. You are being attacked. You have a gun.
What do you do with it? Shoot the attacker? (Oh, the attacker
is a bacterium and it's been multplying in your system for a
while now)

Well put. There is no effective defense against determined terrorists
who have worldwide support, short of a massive security clampdown at
home affecting every phase of life. Every inhabitant of the country
would have to be intimately available to the government security
apparatus, perhaps via imbedded micro chips or similar technology.
Border security would need a colossal budget. Anything short of that
(invading other countries, putting TFRs around football stadiums, hiring
more airport security, etc.), is vain political window dressing.

We are in a religious war. We didn't choose it, but we've got it.
These barbarians cannot be appeased, even should we be so foolish as to
try. They don't want peace, they want power: they want hegemony over
the entire Muslim world, including enclaves like Chechnya and Kashmir;
they want the total exclusion of Western cultural influence from every
Islamic country.

As you said, there is no realistic, i.e. practical, way to defeat these
murdering fanatics. We will keep hunting them down and killing them,
but there will always be plenty of eager replacements in the pipeline.

This is going to be a very ugly period in history. The spokesman
claiming responsibility for the Spanish bombings said "You love life, we
love death." That pretty neatly sums up the two sides in this war. In
such a struggle, the side that loves life is at a tactical disadvantage.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)