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Grand Teton Crash



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 15th 18, 03:08 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
George Haeh
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Default Grand Teton Crash

In my glider TAS and Groundspeed along with the usual IGC file data are fed to my Oudie in one second intervals. That data can be used to quantify longitudinal and vertical wind shears.

Does anybody know what would be recorded in the accident glider?
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  #12  
Old June 15th 18, 09:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob T
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Default Grand Teton Crash

On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 8:08:23 PM UTC-6, George Haeh wrote:
In my glider TAS and Groundspeed along with the usual IGC file data are fed to my Oudie in one second intervals. That data can be used to quantify longitudinal and vertical wind shears.

Does anybody know what would be recorded in the accident glider?


Sad indeed. Clear air, cloudy, or stormy, This is why I spent a long time researching and then writing the 10 page article in Soaring Magazine a few years ago titled "Rogue Air". Every once in a while the air can sneak up on pilots and cause an upset, sometimes fatal. My upset came in clear air with a few cu. Luckily, I pulled out at about 500' agl and was surprised the wings stayed on. It just wasn't my day to go. For others, it's their time, and our time to be sad, yet remember all the good of those that have moved on.

http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/...b_Thompson.pdf

19
  #13  
Old June 15th 18, 10:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Renny[_2_]
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Posts: 241
Default Grand Teton Crash

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 2:03:19 PM UTC-6, Bob T wrote:
On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 8:08:23 PM UTC-6, George Haeh wrote:
In my glider TAS and Groundspeed along with the usual IGC file data are fed to my Oudie in one second intervals. That data can be used to quantify longitudinal and vertical wind shears.

Does anybody know what would be recorded in the accident glider?


Sad indeed. Clear air, cloudy, or stormy, This is why I spent a long time researching and then writing the 10 page article in Soaring Magazine a few years ago titled "Rogue Air". Every once in a while the air can sneak up on pilots and cause an upset, sometimes fatal. My upset came in clear air with a few cu. Luckily, I pulled out at about 500' agl and was surprised the wings stayed on. It just wasn't my day to go. For others, it's their time, and our time to be sad, yet remember all the good of those that have moved on.

http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/...b_Thompson.pdf

19


Bob - Your article is excellent and I do believe it may explain a lot when it comes to some accidents and incidents in recent years. I have no idea if it was a factor in this terrible accident at the Grand Teton National Park, but we have all heard about (and perhaps personally experienced) accidents and incidents in which the cause of the "upset" could really never be definitively determined. I believe that in many cases something really out of the ordinary "happened" and I also believe that "Rogue Air," that no one ever "saw," may be the real cause of quite a few accidents. Thanks for doing all of the research and for writing it! Be careful out there! Renny
  #14  
Old June 16th 18, 05:13 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobW
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Posts: 406
Default Grand Teton Crash

On 6/15/2018 2:03 PM, Bob T wrote:
Snip...

Sad indeed. Clear air, cloudy, or stormy, This is why I spent a long time
researching and then writing the 10 page article in Soaring Magazine a few
years ago titled "Rogue Air". Every once in a while the air can sneak up
on pilots and cause an upset, sometimes fatal. My upset came in clear air
with a few cu. Luckily, I pulled out at about 500' agl and was surprised
the wings stayed on. It just wasn't my day to go. For others, it's their
time, and our time to be sad, yet remember all the good of those that have
moved on.

http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/...b_Thompson.pdf


Excellent article with 'some darn good pictures' as well! Well worth Joe
Glider Pilot's reading time and continuing ponderation. I base my assertion on
having encountered 'rogue air' a number of times myself in gliders, and being
fortunate enough to not have bent or broken anything (or died, humorless
laugh) in those encounters...though two instances were 'somewhat in doubt' in
my mind *while* they were happening. Eyeball defocusing turbulence and 3,000+
fpm sink will definitely get your attention.

Bob W.

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  #15  
Old June 17th 18, 07:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 907
Default Grand Teton Crash

I just read Bob Thompson's excellent article on "Rogue Air". Reminds me of an encounter I had in a Inyo mountains thermal. I was maneuvering in a canyon running up the mountains, had a nice thermal, good climb rate, it even seemed round. All the sudden I was picked up by what felt like a force grabbing the tail of my ASW-24, nose pointing down perhaps 70-80 degrees and the glider was pulled skyward for two thousand feet while still pointing downward. At the top of the thrust I recovered from the unusual attitude and had a great day flying. Learned later we lost glider at the switchbacks that same day. Two other great articles to familiarize yourself with are "Don't Smack the Mountain" by Henry Coombs and JJ Sinclair's article on the same topic (JJ if you see this post please post a link to your article.)
Stay safe guys and gals!
Jon

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 9:13:49 PM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
On 6/15/2018 2:03 PM, Bob T wrote:
Snip...

Sad indeed. Clear air, cloudy, or stormy, This is why I spent a long time
researching and then writing the 10 page article in Soaring Magazine a few
years ago titled "Rogue Air". Every once in a while the air can sneak up
on pilots and cause an upset, sometimes fatal. My upset came in clear air
with a few cu. Luckily, I pulled out at about 500' agl and was surprised
the wings stayed on. It just wasn't my day to go. For others, it's their
time, and our time to be sad, yet remember all the good of those that have
moved on.

http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/...b_Thompson.pdf


Excellent article with 'some darn good pictures' as well! Well worth Joe
Glider Pilot's reading time and continuing ponderation. I base my assertion on
having encountered 'rogue air' a number of times myself in gliders, and being
fortunate enough to not have bent or broken anything (or died, humorless
laugh) in those encounters...though two instances were 'somewhat in doubt' in
my mind *while* they were happening. Eyeball defocusing turbulence and 3,000+
fpm sink will definitely get your attention.

Bob W.

---
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https://www.avg.com


  #16  
Old June 18th 18, 06:03 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 6
Default Grand Teton Crash

https://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/en/lib...k-the-mountain
  #17  
Old June 18th 18, 06:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 907
Default Grand Teton Crash

The correct information on articles are JJ Sinclair's excellent article "Don't Smack the Mountain", and Henry Combs article entitled "That Beautiful Mountain and Her Sinister Trap: A Possible Explanation for Some Unexplained Ridge-Soaring Crashes". Not sure why i couldn't remember and thus transposed. Both are a wealth of information.

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 9:13:49 PM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
On 6/15/2018 2:03 PM, Bob T wrote:
Snip...

Sad indeed. Clear air, cloudy, or stormy, This is why I spent a long time
researching and then writing the 10 page article in Soaring Magazine a few
years ago titled "Rogue Air". Every once in a while the air can sneak up
on pilots and cause an upset, sometimes fatal. My upset came in clear air
with a few cu. Luckily, I pulled out at about 500' agl and was surprised
the wings stayed on. It just wasn't my day to go. For others, it's their
time, and our time to be sad, yet remember all the good of those that have
moved on.

http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/...b_Thompson.pdf


Excellent article with 'some darn good pictures' as well! Well worth Joe
Glider Pilot's reading time and continuing ponderation. I base my assertion on
having encountered 'rogue air' a number of times myself in gliders, and being
fortunate enough to not have bent or broken anything (or died, humorless
laugh) in those encounters...though two instances were 'somewhat in doubt' in
my mind *while* they were happening. Eyeball defocusing turbulence and 3,000+
fpm sink will definitely get your attention.

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

  #18  
Old June 18th 18, 11:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 30
Default Grand Teton Crash

On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 10:31:51 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
The correct information on articles are JJ Sinclair's excellent article "Don't Smack the Mountain", and Henry Combs article entitled "That Beautiful Mountain and Her Sinister Trap: A Possible Explanation for Some Unexplained Ridge-Soaring Crashes". Not sure why i couldn't remember and thus transposed. Both are a wealth of information.

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 9:13:49 PM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
On 6/15/2018 2:03 PM, Bob T wrote:
Snip...

Sad indeed. Clear air, cloudy, or stormy, This is why I spent a long time
researching and then writing the 10 page article in Soaring Magazine a few
years ago titled "Rogue Air". Every once in a while the air can sneak up
on pilots and cause an upset, sometimes fatal. My upset came in clear air
with a few cu. Luckily, I pulled out at about 500' agl and was surprised
the wings stayed on. It just wasn't my day to go. For others, it's their
time, and our time to be sad, yet remember all the good of those that have
moved on.

http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/...b_Thompson.pdf

Excellent article with 'some darn good pictures' as well! Well worth Joe
Glider Pilot's reading time and continuing ponderation. I base my assertion on
having encountered 'rogue air' a number of times myself in gliders, and being
fortunate enough to not have bent or broken anything (or died, humorless
laugh) in those encounters...though two instances were 'somewhat in doubt' in
my mind *while* they were happening. Eyeball defocusing turbulence and 3,000+
fpm sink will definitely get your attention.

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


Here's some Links to those two articles:

The first is by John Sinclair, well known Northern California cross country and competition soaring pilot, sailplane builder and repair man (the article is at the end of the Valley Soaring Newsletter):
http://valleysoaring.net/pk/windsock...p%2007-v21.pdf


The second is by now legendary soaring pilot and one of the engineers who designed the A-12, YF-12 and SR-71, Henry Combs:
https://ee.stanford.edu/~hellman/soaring/Combs.pdf

  #19  
Old June 20th 18, 02:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 123
Default Grand Teton Crash

The "Rogue Air" article has a picture of what Bob T calls a "spinner". I've heard them called Mustache clouds and saw (what I assume was) one just the other day. Oddly, one end had a loop in it so it looked more like a curved sewing needle than a mustache. It had me wondering how in the world it got that shape. No pictures as I was driving on an expressway.
 




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