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Glider rides



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 13th 09, 06:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BDS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 127
Default Glider rides

I belong to a glider club that is looking at the possibility of offering
rides to help us to defray our operating costs and keep our club healthy
financially. In order to evaluate the feasibility of this I am looking into
the regulations that would apply to such an operation, as well as the
insurance impact.

Our present understanding is that both the tow plane and the glider would
need to have 100-hr inspections and that the pilots of the tow plane and the
glider would need to have a commercial rating as well as a second class
medical for the towplane pilot.

However, we are uncertain as to some of the other regulations such as
compliance with drug testing and the requirement for an LOA for this type of
operation, since it appears that there may be some exceptions when it comes
to gliders.

Can someone with experience in this area help to shed some light on these
aspects as well as anything else that we should be aware of?

Thanks.

Bruce





  #2  
Old December 13th 09, 06:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony V
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Posts: 175
Default Glider rides

bds wrote:
I belong to a glider club that is looking at the possibility of offering
rides to help us to defray our operating costs and keep our club healthy
financially. In order to evaluate the feasibility of this I am looking into
the regulations that would apply to such an operation, as well as the
insurance impact.



Clearly (to me), you need the advice of an aviation attorney.

That said, Some clubs offer "rides" to the public as "introductory
lessons". The fee includes a one day temporary membership. The new club
member is then taken for a glider flight. Dunno if the FAA (assuming
US)or insurance company go along with this.

Tony V.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING
  #3  
Old December 13th 09, 07:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Scott[_7_]
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Posts: 256
Default Glider rides

Tony V wrote:



Clearly (to me), you need the advice of an aviation attorney.

That said, Some clubs offer "rides" to the public as "introductory
lessons". The fee includes a one day temporary membership. The new club
member is then taken for a glider flight. Dunno if the FAA (assuming
US)or insurance company go along with this.

Tony V.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING


Well, I don't know why they wouldn't if the "rider" gets a log book with
an entry as dual training. As long as the glider pilot is an
instructor...the side benefit is that is they really like it, they may
pursue learning to fly and drop even more money into the club's lap

I know that worked for me

  #4  
Old December 13th 09, 07:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 995
Default Glider rides

Many clubs offer rides to the public. The insurance carrier carries the
heaviest rules.

The FAA does not require the tow pilot to hold a commercial rating or
maintain a Class II medical. There are many discussions in this area to
include the FAA FAQ File. The tow plane is not the "carriage of persons for
hire", the glider is. The insurance company may and has required the tow
pilot to hold commercial ratings and thus a Class II Medical. The insurance
carrier may now require that you carry "commercial insurance" on all club
aircraft, tow plane and all gliders owned by the club, not just the gliders
used to provide rides.

Dependent on where you operate and your "operating or lease agreement" with
the airport management, you may be required to amend your lease or operating
permit to include a business. As a Club, most operating agreements are "flat
fee" to the airport for tiedowns, hanger space or ground lease for a club
house etc. As a "business offering rides to the general public", the airport
management may now consider you a business, holding out to the public. Many
airport leases are written to include a percentage of the gross income which
could include all income to the club from dues and members rental fees plus
the income received from the public rides.

BT


"bds" wrote in message ...
I belong to a glider club that is looking at the possibility of offering
rides to help us to defray our operating costs and keep our club healthy
financially. In order to evaluate the feasibility of this I am looking
into
the regulations that would apply to such an operation, as well as the
insurance impact.

Our present understanding is that both the tow plane and the glider would
need to have 100-hr inspections and that the pilots of the tow plane and
the
glider would need to have a commercial rating as well as a second class
medical for the towplane pilot.

However, we are uncertain as to some of the other regulations such as
compliance with drug testing and the requirement for an LOA for this type
of
operation, since it appears that there may be some exceptions when it
comes
to gliders.

Can someone with experience in this area help to shed some light on these
aspects as well as anything else that we should be aware of?

Thanks.

Bruce







  #5  
Old December 13th 09, 09:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Alistair Wright
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 37
Default Glider rides

Well, in my day (the 60's and 70's) in the UK we just made passengers sign
an indemnity form absolving the club from any reponsibility for accident or
injury or loss. Known as 'blood chits', these seemed to satisfy whatever
rules were in force at the time, since the BGA must have been aware of the
practice - every club was doing it. I seem to recall that some instructions
eventually came down from on high about briefing passengers on how to use
their parachute, and what would happen if it was necessary to abandon the
glider. I used to give these instructions and then add " If I say jump,
don't say pardon?, because I won't be around for a discussion". I never flew
passengers at a club that did not own or rent their site exclusively, so
'operating a business' never arose. Needless to say I never had to jump, and
I don't think anyone else ever did either.

Alistair W



  #6  
Old December 13th 09, 09:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 995
Default Glider rides

"Scott" wrote in message
.. .
Tony V wrote:



Clearly (to me), you need the advice of an aviation attorney.

That said, Some clubs offer "rides" to the public as "introductory
lessons". The fee includes a one day temporary membership. The new club
member is then taken for a glider flight. Dunno if the FAA (assuming
US)or insurance company go along with this.

Tony V.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING


Well, I don't know why they wouldn't if the "rider" gets a log book with
an entry as dual training. As long as the glider pilot is an
instructor...the side benefit is that is they really like it, they may
pursue learning to fly and drop even more money into the club's lap

I know that worked for me

Dependent on how the club's insurance is set up.
Don't advertise.. walk up's interested in learning to fly.. careful
explanations that it is a flying club.
Ride must be with a CFIG, not just any club member or commercial pilot.
Direct obvious bungee jumpers to the local commercial ride for hire
operation, if there is one.


  #7  
Old December 13th 09, 09:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 995
Default Glider rides

This is no longer the 60s or 70s, but the (almost 2010s) with a society that
thinks nothing of posting a lawsuit for personal injury because you yelled
at them to get out of the way of a landing aircraft after you already told
them not to be were they are.

Very few glider clubs in the US have sole use or ownership of the airfield
where they are at.

"Alistair Wright" wrote in message
...
Well, in my day (the 60's and 70's) in the UK we just made passengers sign
an indemnity form absolving the club from any reponsibility for accident
or injury or loss. Known as 'blood chits', these seemed to satisfy
whatever rules were in force at the time, since the BGA must have been
aware of the practice - every club was doing it. I seem to recall that
some instructions eventually came down from on high about briefing
passengers on how to use their parachute, and what would happen if it was
necessary to abandon the glider. I used to give these instructions and
then add " If I say jump, don't say pardon?, because I won't be around
for a discussion". I never flew passengers at a club that did not own or
rent their site exclusively, so 'operating a business' never arose.
Needless to say I never had to jump, and I don't think anyone else ever
did either.

Alistair W




  #8  
Old December 13th 09, 10:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Morgans[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,924
Default Glider rides


"Alistair Wright" wrote

Well, in my day (the 60's and 70's) in the UK we just made passengers sign
an indemnity form absolving the club from any reponsibility for accident
or injury or loss. Known as 'blood chits', these seemed to satisfy
whatever rules were in force at the time, since the BGA must have been
aware of the practice - every club was doing it.


Not worth the paper they are written on, in the US.

The way it was explained to me, was that even if you signed away your rights
to not hold them responsible, you can not sign away the rights of your
spouse and family for suing you, for you being responsible for getting the
person killed or severely injured.
--
Jim in NC


  #9  
Old December 13th 09, 10:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Chris Reed[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 56
Default Glider rides

Morgans wrote:
"Alistair Wright" wrote

Well, in my day (the 60's and 70's) in the UK we just made passengers sign
an indemnity form absolving the club from any reponsibility for accident
or injury or loss.


snip


Not worth the paper they are written on, in the US.

Even in the 60s they weren't worth the paper they were written on in the
UK either.

The most important thing is insurance - once you've got that sorted with
your insurers, the rest is comparatively easy.

If becoming a business is a problem, as it is in the UK, then it's easy
to make the flight a non-commercial flight. You do this by calculating
the pure flying costs (launch cost + glider hire/airtime) and then
calculating the length of membership to cover the rest of the fee.

Example: ride cost = 100, annual membership = 500, pure flying costs =
65, remainder buys 35/500 of a year's membership. Round it up to a
month's membership and you're making a notional loss, and thus not
providing a commercial flight. To be certain, make the flight an
instructional flight - this makes it more interesting for the ride, and
if they don't want to touch the controls you can still explain what is
happening and why and thus provide instruction.

In practice you will never see 90% of your glider rides again. 9% will
turn up once more and pay for another flight, but decide that the
waiting around with the ordinary clube members (of whom they are now
one) is too dull to come again. 1% will be hooked like I was.

The thing to guard against is allowing the glider rides (trial lessons
in UK-speak) to rule the operation. This almost happened in the club to
which I belonged, and if long-standing members lose the chance to fly
because you are giving preference to glider rides then the club could
quite swiftly disintegrate. It's not a bad practice to restrict
introductory flights to the non-soaring part of the day, which also
makes it easier for the first-time maybe pilot to achieve some measure
of control of the aircraft without those pesky thermals pushing him or
her all over the sky.
  #10  
Old December 14th 09, 11:19 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
CindyB
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 42
Default Glider rides


Bruce:

I am presuming you are writing from the US, since you reference
drug testing and LOAs in your questions. I am only aware of these
types of programs in the US.

You can contact your SSA regional director for some of these answers,
and they will also say many of the same things reported here.

Your insurance carrier can answer many questions directly
for you. A change in service, to allow more services by you to the
public, will likely change your rates for coverage, and tell you who
will be allowed to fly which machines. Insurance coverage of clubs
in the US is more restrictive to many of your actions than the FARs.

There is a big difference in risks, required pilot certificates and
premiums depending on whether you do only rides versus
introductory lesson flights. Passenger rides do not include
allowing the passenger to handle the flight controls, by most
insurance.

Towplanes typically do not carry passengers while towing.
What they drag behind them is not 'the tug carrying a passenger'.
SSA effected that formal interpretation from the FAA in about
1972. For climb performance and non-distractions while towing,
most towing operations will not carry anyone aboard that machine
except the towing staff. Hence that machine won't need 100-hr
inspections. Most insurance excludes having passengers aboard
a tug while towing.

Depending on your insurance coverage, you may or may not need
a commercial pilot for the tug. A minimum of a private certificate is
required for towing by the FARS, and an appropriate endorsement by
two different persons.

For a ride in the glider you need a commercial glider pilot, if
you are charging money for that service.
You will not need a drug testing program for the commercial
glider pilot, as this is another case of SSA success in regulatory
negotiations. When you read the drug testing regulations for
'scenic rides', please notice the difference between
aircraft and airplanes. This minor vocabulary difference is
deliberate.

Glider instructors are exempted from terrorist-threat identification
training, and random drug test training, by action of the SSA with the
FAA. Glider students are exempt from background checking and
nationality proof requirements, due to ???? yes, SSA.


There is a lot of support within SSA for organizational help to
Chapter clubs through the Chapter Committee. You can use the
link after you log in as an SSA member.
http://www.ssa.org/members/governanc...l.asp?group=36

The other responder who mentions balancing the allocation of flight
access
between established and potential members illuminates a tricky point.
Good business plans, models from other clubs, and advice from
several sources will allow your group to make informed decisions.

An attorney might be of help, but much of this can be accomplished
without forking over fees needlessly. Waivers are helpful mostly in
making folks believe they shouldn't pursue frivolous legal action, not
for their
actual legal weight or value. Good operational practices obviate the
majority of needs for legal defense.



Best wishes,

Cindy B
Region 12 SSA Director



On Dec 13, 9:27*am, "bds" wrote:
I belong to a glider club that is looking at the possibility of offering
rides to help us to defray our operating costs and keep our club healthy
financially. In order to evaluate the feasibility of this I am looking into
the regulations that would apply to such an operation, as well as the
insurance impact.

Our present understanding is that both the tow plane and the glider would
need to have 100-hr inspections and that the pilots of the tow plane and the
glider would need to have a commercial rating as well as a second class
medical for the towplane pilot.

However, we are uncertain as to some of the other regulations such as
compliance with drug testing and the requirement for an LOA for this type of
operation, since it appears that there may be some exceptions when it comes
to gliders.

Can someone with experience in this area help to shed some light on these
aspects as well as anything else that we should be aware of?

Thanks.

Bruce


 




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