Visual coordination of turns revisited

I'm still in a bit of a quandry as to how to learn to make coordinated turns
in a PC simulator that does not include a motion platform.

I've turned on the visual alignment indicator that MSFS provides, which is a
red "V" that sits squarely ahead in the visual field, effectively bolted to
the airframe. I've been trying to turn such that this V always moves along
the horizon at a constant speed for a given bank angle. Logically, a specific
bank angle in a coordinated turn will always produce a heading change at the
same speed. If the speed at which the horizon is moving varies, the turn is
not coordinated.

Also, it seems that in a coordinated, level turn, this V should stay at the
same distance above the horizon throughout the turn.

As I roll into a turn, the speed of movement of the V along the horizon should
increase in precise relationship to the bank angle. The opposite should occur
as I roll out of the turn, with the speed along the horizon slowing as I
return to level flight.

Any problems with this? The only remaining problem is to figure out _how_
fast the V should be moving for a given bank angle. Maybe that can come with
practice.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

I'm still in a bit of a quandry as to how to learn to make coordinated
turns in a PC simulator that does not include a motion platform.

Please don't reply to this troll....

If your desire is so bad to reply, set the followups to the sim groups!

Thanks!

Allen

Mxsmanic wrote:
I'm still in a bit of a quandry as to how to learn to make
coordinated turns in a PC simulator that does not include a motion
platform.

I've turned on the visual alignment indicator that MSFS provides,
which is a red "V" that sits squarely ahead in the visual field,
effectively bolted to the airframe. I've been trying to turn such
that this V always moves along the horizon at a constant speed for a
given bank angle. Logically, a specific bank angle in a coordinated
turn will always produce a heading change at the same speed. If the
speed at which the horizon is moving varies, the turn is not
coordinated.

Also, it seems that in a coordinated, level turn, this V should stay
at the same distance above the horizon throughout the turn.

As I roll into a turn, the speed of movement of the V along the
horizon should increase in precise relationship to the bank angle.
The opposite should occur as I roll out of the turn, with the speed
along the horizon slowing as I return to level flight.

Any problems with this? The only remaining problem is to figure out
_how_ fast the V should be moving for a given bank angle. Maybe that
can come with practice.

In the real world we don't have that little V superimposed on the wind
sheild. What we do have is that little dodad ball in most cases in the turn
coordinator. Keep that little ball so it looks like this

|O| and you will be in a coordinated turn.

If you want to know how to make that V do what you want you are going to
have to ask in a flight sim newsgroup.

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

In the real world we don't have that little V superimposed on the wind
sheild. What we do have is that little dodad ball in most cases in the turn
coordinator. Keep that little ball so it looks like this

|O| and you will be in a coordinated turn.

I know, but under VFR I'm supposed to be looking out the window, not staring
at the ball.

I found some Web pages on this; one of them suggests looking out the side of
the aircraft at the wing. If I'm in level flight, the extension of the wing
out the window points to the horizon, and it moves forward (very slowly,
depending on the distance of terrain). If I turn, however--and if the turn is
coordinated--it seems that the extension of the wing will point to a spot on
the ground that remains stationary. This spot is the center of my turn. The
steeper the turn, the closer this spot will be to my aircraft, but it will
always be aligned with the wing. If no spot above the wing is stationary in
the turn, the turn is uncoordinated.

Does that seem logical?

If you want to know how to make that V do what you want you are going to
have to ask in a flight sim newsgroup.

The pages I read suggest making a mark on the windshield for the purpose, with
a grease pencil or something. The sim provides a more perfect mark than one
can achieve in real life (because in real life one moves one's head, etc.),
but the same technique can be used in real life. The problem with it, though,
is that I'm not sure how fast the heading should be changing for a given
degree of bank, and it's not clear that there is a way to recognize this
intuitively.

Watching the extension of the wing out the side of the aircraft seems to work,
although it's more awkward. The page I read said you can fly the aircraft all
day by watching the wingtip, and this does indeed seem to be true, although I
suppose one would finish the day with a sore neck.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Your model is wrong.


You might check with the sim group on how they do it.

On Feb 7, 6:24 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Gig 601XL Builder writes:
In the real world we don't have that little V superimposed on the wind
sheild. What we do have is that little dodad ball in most cases in the turn
coordinator. Keep that little ball so it looks like this

|O| and you will be in a coordinated turn.

I know, but under VFR I'm supposed to be looking out the window, not staring
at the ball.

I found some Web pages on this; one of them suggests looking out the side of
the aircraft at the wing. If I'm in level flight, the extension of the wing
out the window points to the horizon, and it moves forward (very slowly,
depending on the distance of terrain). If I turn, however--and if the turn is
coordinated--it seems that the extension of the wing will point to a spot on
the ground that remains stationary. This spot is the center of my turn. The
steeper the turn, the closer this spot will be to my aircraft, but it will
always be aligned with the wing. If no spot above the wing is stationary in
the turn, the turn is uncoordinated.

Does that seem logical?

If you want to know how to make that V do what you want you are going to
have to ask in a flight sim newsgroup.

The pages I read suggest making a mark on the windshield for the purpose, with
a grease pencil or something. The sim provides a more perfect mark than one
can achieve in real life (because in real life one moves one's head, etc.),
but the same technique can be used in real life. The problem with it, though,
is that I'm not sure how fast the heading should be changing for a given
degree of bank, and it's not clear that there is a way to recognize this
intuitively.

Watching the extension of the wing out the side of the aircraft seems to work,
although it's more awkward. The page I read said you can fly the aircraft all
day by watching the wingtip, and this does indeed seem to be true, although I
suppose one would finish the day with a sore neck.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Tony writes:

Your model is wrong.

What is wrong with the model?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mark Levin writes:

Guess what. In VFR conditions real pilots make coordinated turns by feel.

I don't have that option in simulation, so I have to find some other way.

But of course in your world pilots should never rely on physical sensations
for anything so I don't know how you would do it.

I guess you'd be lost in IMC, eh?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On Feb 8, 12:24 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Gig 601XL Builder writes:
In the real world we don't have that little V superimposed on the wind
sheild. What we do have is that little dodad ball in most cases in the turn
coordinator. Keep that little ball so it looks like this

|O| and you will be in a coordinated turn.

I know, but under VFR I'm supposed to be looking out the window, not staring
at the ball.

I found some Web pages on this; one of them suggests looking out the side of
the aircraft at the wing. If I'm in level flight, the extension of the wing
out the window points to the horizon, and it moves forward (very slowly,
depending on the distance of terrain). If I turn, however--and if the turn is
coordinated--it seems that the extension of the wing will point to a spot on
the ground that remains stationary. This spot is the center of my turn. The
steeper the turn, the closer this spot will be to my aircraft, but it will
always be aligned with the wing. If no spot above the wing is stationary in
the turn, the turn is uncoordinated.

Does that seem logical?

If you want to know how to make that V do what you want you are going to
have to ask in a flight sim newsgroup.

The pages I read suggest making a mark on the windshield for the purpose, with
a grease pencil or something. The sim provides a more perfect mark than one
can achieve in real life (because in real life one moves one's head, etc.),
but the same technique can be used in real life. The problem with it, though,
is that I'm not sure how fast the heading should be changing for a given
degree of bank, and it's not clear that there is a way to recognize this
intuitively.

Watching the extension of the wing out the side of the aircraft seems to work,
although it's more awkward. The page I read said you can fly the aircraft all
day by watching the wingtip, and this does indeed seem to be true, although I
suppose one would finish the day with a sore neck.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Step on the ball...

You may or may not know about adverse yaw - when you use the ailerons
they are producing more lift on the upgoing wing, and lift produces
drag so the wing initially moves the wrong way. You need to apply
rudder in the direction of the turn as you are using the ailerons,
then back off the rudder as you centre the yoke / stick. You will
then find you need to apply a small amount of left rudder, no rudder
or right rudder depending on the angle of bank. You will soon work it
out.
I still have to glance at the ball from time to time, but it is
something you do get used to.. Every aircraft is different with
regards to how much rudder you need to apply.

Look up the meaning of coordinated flight and the errors in your model
should be obvious.

On Feb 7, 6:54 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Tony writes:
Your model is wrong.

What is wrong with the model?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On Feb 8, 3:15 pm, "Tony" wrote:
Look up the meaning of coordinated flight and the errors in your model
should be obvious.

Aye??? What does that mean ???