bad vectors, no hand off

Flyers,

I just want some of your thoughts on this. My plane partner and I went out
last night to do some practice instrument approaches. He wore the hood and
I was the right-seat safety pilot.

ATC was not too busy and it was a nice VFR night. First, after we asked for
a practice ILS 24 into KPNE they acknowledged our request and then forgot
about us and had us continue flying away from the field for sometime. This
continued until I finally asked if they were going to vector us.

"Oh...no...I just figured you'd turn toward Yardley."

Hmmm...ok we turn toward Yardley. He then had us climb to 3000. He
vectored us onto the approach within 1/8 mile of the final approach fix, had
us maintain 3000 (FAF alt on chart is 2000) and cleared us for the approach.
My partner was struggling to get the plane down and I'm looking out for
planes, our attitude, the glide slope, his airspeed,...IOW...everything.

I suddenly realize that we are on a 1/2 mile final (way above the glide
slope) and we were never handed off to the tower. I push the flip-flop
button and contact the tower and ask if we missed a handoff.

The tower responds, "I've been waiting for you to contact us"

"I'm sorry. Did approach hand us off?"

"No...but that doesn't matter...it's your responsibility. You need to
realize that there is a problem before you're on a 1/2 mile final."

To make a long story short...we were given back to approach and did the
approach into our field (VOR-A). We were handed off to another approach
controller. We asked for a practice VOR-A into N14 with vectors. This
controller never vectored us and merrily watched us (or didn't watch us) fly
right through the approach course, never vectoring us, never assigning an
altitude and never clearing us for the approach.

I get on the radio and asked if he wanted us to fly through the approach
course.

"Ahhh...no...just intercept the approach course and maintain 2100 until
PONDE (the FAF)..." he then cleared us for the approach.

What was this? A bad night for controllers? Were we second class citizens?
And why did I get bawled out for the approach controllers forgetful
hand-off?

Kobra

Lurker wrote:
The tower responds, "I've been waiting for you to contact us"

"I'm sorry. Did approach hand us off?"

"No...but that doesn't matter...it's your responsibility. You need to
realize that there is a problem before you're on a 1/2 mile final."


I've got to say I've never received such ****ty service in the South. Actually,
I can't say I've received such ****ty service anywhere. Since when is it your
responsibility to decide when to end communications with one controller and
begin with another? I think I'd be writing the FSDO or somebody and complain
loudly, with CC:'s to your local congresscritters. In fact, call and complain
immediately before the tapes get overwritten.


To make a long story short...we were given back to approach and did the
approach into our field (VOR-A). We were handed off to another approach
controller. We asked for a practice VOR-A into N14 with vectors. This
controller never vectored us and merrily watched us (or didn't watch us) fly
right through the approach course, never vectoring us, never assigning an
altitude and never clearing us for the approach.


You know, if they didn't want to bother with you, the least they could have done
is tell you so. Or is it their position that that is your responsibility to
determine as well?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Lurker wrote:
Were we second class citizens?

Depends. Were you flying a Cherokee?

VFR, practice, unless you ask for vectors or are told,
"vectors to ..." then you navigate.

Suggest you file a NASA report to cover your butt, [two-one
for each pilot].
http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/forms_nf.htm



"Lurker" wrote in message
...
| Flyers,
|
| I just want some of your thoughts on this. My plane
partner and I went out
| last night to do some practice instrument approaches. He
wore the hood and
| I was the right-seat safety pilot.
|
| ATC was not too busy and it was a nice VFR night. First,
after we asked for
| a practice ILS 24 into KPNE they acknowledged our request
and then forgot
| about us and had us continue flying away from the field
for sometime. This
| continued until I finally asked if they were going to
vector us.
|
| "Oh...no...I just figured you'd turn toward Yardley."
|
| Hmmm...ok we turn toward Yardley. He then had us climb to
3000. He
| vectored us onto the approach within 1/8 mile of the final
approach fix, had
| us maintain 3000 (FAF alt on chart is 2000) and cleared us
for the approach.
| My partner was struggling to get the plane down and I'm
looking out for
| planes, our attitude, the glide slope, his
airspeed,...IOW...everything.
|
| I suddenly realize that we are on a 1/2 mile final (way
above the glide
| slope) and we were never handed off to the tower. I push
the flip-flop
| button and contact the tower and ask if we missed a
handoff.
|
| The tower responds, "I've been waiting for you to contact
us"
|
| "I'm sorry. Did approach hand us off?"
|
| "No...but that doesn't matter...it's your responsibility.
You need to
| realize that there is a problem before you're on a 1/2
mile final."
|
| To make a long story short...we were given back to
approach and did the
| approach into our field (VOR-A). We were handed off to
another approach
| controller. We asked for a practice VOR-A into N14 with
vectors. This
| controller never vectored us and merrily watched us (or
didn't watch us) fly
| right through the approach course, never vectoring us,
never assigning an
| altitude and never clearing us for the approach.
|
| I get on the radio and asked if he wanted us to fly
through the approach
| course.
|
| "Ahhh...no...just intercept the approach course and
maintain 2100 until
| PONDE (the FAF)..." he then cleared us for the approach.
|
| What was this? A bad night for controllers? Were we
second class citizens?
| And why did I get bawled out for the approach controllers
forgetful
| hand-off?
|
| Kobra
|
|

On 2/7/2007 8:07:26 PM, "Lurker" wrote:

And why did I get bawled out for the approach controllers forgetful
hand-off?

I cannot comment on the rest of your plight other than to suggest you call
the facility, explain what happened and ask if the service you received was
acceptable from their perspective.

However, regarding the failed hand-off, I do suggest that better situational
awareness along the approach or perhaps more assertiveness on the PIC's part
would have prevented the terse lecture.

After routinely flying IFR for the last three years, I can recall several
cases of approach failing to hand me off to tower. In all cases, I wait until
about 1/2 mile inside the FAF, then call approach with a "Bonanza XXX inside
{FAF}, switch to tower?" Just about every time this results in a quick
hand-off.

In one case approach failed to reply so I just switched myself and called
tower with "Tower, Bonanza XXX inside {FAF}, never received a hand-off."

--
Peter

No question that you got bad service, but I would suggest that the PIC be
more assertive. If you don't get what you want, ask for it. In the future,
file IFR and turn your "practice" into reality.

Bob Gardner

"Lurker" wrote in message
...
Flyers,

I just want some of your thoughts on this. My plane partner and I went
out
last night to do some practice instrument approaches. He wore the hood
and
I was the right-seat safety pilot.

ATC was not too busy and it was a nice VFR night. First, after we asked
for
a practice ILS 24 into KPNE they acknowledged our request and then forgot
about us and had us continue flying away from the field for sometime.
This
continued until I finally asked if they were going to vector us.

"Oh...no...I just figured you'd turn toward Yardley."

Hmmm...ok we turn toward Yardley. He then had us climb to 3000. He
vectored us onto the approach within 1/8 mile of the final approach fix,
had
us maintain 3000 (FAF alt on chart is 2000) and cleared us for the
approach.
My partner was struggling to get the plane down and I'm looking out for
planes, our attitude, the glide slope, his airspeed,...IOW...everything.

I suddenly realize that we are on a 1/2 mile final (way above the glide
slope) and we were never handed off to the tower. I push the flip-flop
button and contact the tower and ask if we missed a handoff.

The tower responds, "I've been waiting for you to contact us"

"I'm sorry. Did approach hand us off?"

"No...but that doesn't matter...it's your responsibility. You need to
realize that there is a problem before you're on a 1/2 mile final."

To make a long story short...we were given back to approach and did the
approach into our field (VOR-A). We were handed off to another approach
controller. We asked for a practice VOR-A into N14 with vectors. This
controller never vectored us and merrily watched us (or didn't watch us)
fly
right through the approach course, never vectoring us, never assigning an
altitude and never clearing us for the approach.

I get on the radio and asked if he wanted us to fly through the approach
course.

"Ahhh...no...just intercept the approach course and maintain 2100 until
PONDE (the FAF)..." he then cleared us for the approach.

What was this? A bad night for controllers? Were we second class
citizens?
And why did I get bawled out for the approach controllers forgetful
hand-off?

Kobra

Controllers forgetting to hand you off to tower is a fairly common problem
in the IFR environment, especially when it's practice. I just say something
like "Should I got to tower" and that usually does the trick.

--

Wyatt Emmerich
President, Emmerich Newspapers
601-977-0470

PO Box 16709, Jackson MS 39236
Shipping: 246 Briarwood Drive, Suite 101, Jackson MS 39206
"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
No question that you got bad service, but I would suggest that the PIC be
more assertive. If you don't get what you want, ask for it. In the future,
file IFR and turn your "practice" into reality.

Bob Gardner

"Lurker" wrote in message
...
Flyers,

I just want some of your thoughts on this. My plane partner and I went
out
last night to do some practice instrument approaches. He wore the hood
and
I was the right-seat safety pilot.

ATC was not too busy and it was a nice VFR night. First, after we asked
for
a practice ILS 24 into KPNE they acknowledged our request and then forgot
about us and had us continue flying away from the field for sometime.
This
continued until I finally asked if they were going to vector us.

"Oh...no...I just figured you'd turn toward Yardley."

Hmmm...ok we turn toward Yardley. He then had us climb to 3000. He
vectored us onto the approach within 1/8 mile of the final approach fix,
had
us maintain 3000 (FAF alt on chart is 2000) and cleared us for the
approach.
My partner was struggling to get the plane down and I'm looking out for
planes, our attitude, the glide slope, his airspeed,...IOW...everything.

I suddenly realize that we are on a 1/2 mile final (way above the glide
slope) and we were never handed off to the tower. I push the flip-flop
button and contact the tower and ask if we missed a handoff.

The tower responds, "I've been waiting for you to contact us"

"I'm sorry. Did approach hand us off?"

"No...but that doesn't matter...it's your responsibility. You need to
realize that there is a problem before you're on a 1/2 mile final."

To make a long story short...we were given back to approach and did the
approach into our field (VOR-A). We were handed off to another approach
controller. We asked for a practice VOR-A into N14 with vectors. This
controller never vectored us and merrily watched us (or didn't watch us)
fly
right through the approach course, never vectoring us, never assigning an
altitude and never clearing us for the approach.

I get on the radio and asked if he wanted us to fly through the approach
course.

"Ahhh...no...just intercept the approach course and maintain 2100 until
PONDE (the FAF)..." he then cleared us for the approach.

What was this? A bad night for controllers? Were we second class
citizens?
And why did I get bawled out for the approach controllers forgetful
hand-off?

Kobra

"Wyatt Emmerich" wrote in
:

Controllers forgetting to hand you off to tower is a fairly common
problem in the IFR environment, especially when it's practice. I just
say something like "Should I got to tower" and that usually does the
trick.

*smile*

If I don't get transferred to tower within a couple of miles from the FAF,
I was told by my instructor to "report" my position to appraoch controllers
as a memory jogger that I am still with them.

I.E. Jackson Approach 43L one mile outside Brenz.

Usually, approach will come back and then say 43L, contact tower on 1xx.xx

Allen

On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:22:15 GMT, A Lieberma
wrote:

"Wyatt Emmerich" wrote in
:

Controllers forgetting to hand you off to tower is a fairly common
problem in the IFR environment, especially when it's practice. I just
say something like "Should I got to tower" and that usually does the
trick.

*smile*

If I don't get transferred to tower within a couple of miles from the FAF,
I was told by my instructor to "report" my position to appraoch controllers
as a memory jogger that I am still with them.

I.E. Jackson Approach 43L one mile outside Brenz.

Usually, approach will come back and then say 43L, contact tower on 1xx.xx

Allen

In Actual: Ahhh... *** approach, this is XXX 20 North at 4,000. How
far do you want me to keep going for traffic avoidance? Ahhhh XXX ...
turn heading 180 and expect vectors to the ILS.

Know what to expect when and ask why if not.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger wrote in
:

In Actual: Ahhh... *** approach, this is XXX 20 North at 4,000. How
far do you want me to keep going for traffic avoidance? Ahhhh XXX ...
turn heading 180 and expect vectors to the ILS.

I knew instrument flying required patience, but you exceeded the patience
of Job *big smile*.

Musta woke the controller up from a nap?

Allen