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Flarm in the US
Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot
that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a US approved frequency? |
#2
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Flarm in the US
On Aug 9, 9:43*am, Steve Freeman wrote:
Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a US approved frequency? powerflarm units for use in USA will be available later this year. older flarm units are not for use in USA. See: http://www.powerflarm.aero/ Hope that helps, Best Regards, Dave "YO electric" |
#3
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Flarm in the US
On 8/9/2010 8:43 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:
Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a US approved frequency? There is virtually no FLARM in the US. It is unlikely to take off here, as the biggest threats for mid-airs in the US are between powered aircraft and gliders or other aircraft. It's a chicken and egg situation. FLARM is only interesting if everyone equips. No one is going to equip if they don't think that everyone else will. With ADS-B coming out, that is the way to go in the US. If you buy an ADS-B transceiver, not only will you see other ADS-B equipped aircraft, but, if you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, you will also see all Mode C/S transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC. With 80-90% of GA aircraft in the US transponder equipped, this gives an immediate benefit to anyone investing in ADS-B (assuming that they have a ground station deployed in their area). -- Mike Schumann |
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Flarm in the US
On Aug 9, 7:56*am, Mike Schumann
wrote: On 8/9/2010 8:43 AM, Steve Freeman wrote: Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a US approved frequency? There is virtually no FLARM in the US. *It is unlikely to take off here, as the biggest threats for mid-airs in the US are between powered aircraft and gliders or other aircraft. It's a chicken and egg situation. *FLARM is only interesting if everyone equips. *No one is going to equip if they don't think that everyone else will. With ADS-B coming out, that is the way to go in the US. *If you buy an ADS-B transceiver, not only will you see other ADS-B equipped aircraft, but, if you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, you will also see all Mode C/S transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC. * With 80-90% of GA aircraft in the US transponder equipped, this gives an immediate benefit to anyone investing in ADS-B (assuming that they have a ground station deployed in their area). -- Mike Schumann Mike, Your points are all well taken. I realize that FLARM has never been accepted in the US up to now, and we all know that ADS-B is coming in 2020 (although I thought there was a "glider" exemption), but with that being said, would it make any sense for FLARM units to be required for gliders competing in any of our nationals (or maybe even in regionals)? As you are aware, we've had several mid-airs between gliders in recent years and perhaps if gliders had been equipped with FLARM units in a nationals or in a regionals, some of these mid-airs might have been prevented.....Just a thought! Thanks - Renny |
#5
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Flarm in the US
On Aug 9, 9:56*am, Mike Schumann
wrote: On 8/9/2010 8:43 AM, Steve Freeman wrote: Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a US approved frequency? There is virtually no FLARM in the US. *It is unlikely to take off here, as the biggest threats for mid-airs in the US are between powered aircraft and gliders or other aircraft. It's a chicken and egg situation. *FLARM is only interesting if everyone equips. *No one is going to equip if they don't think that everyone else will. With ADS-B coming out, that is the way to go in the US. *If you buy an ADS-B transceiver, not only will you see other ADS-B equipped aircraft, but, if you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, you will also see all Mode C/S transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC. * With 80-90% of GA aircraft in the US transponder equipped, this gives an immediate benefit to anyone investing in ADS-B (assuming that they have a ground station deployed in their area). -- Mike Schumann This is an area of fast changing technology. It is worth looking at link provided by dave above to become more informed. UH |
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Flarm in the US
On Aug 9, 7:12*am, Renny wrote:
On Aug 9, 7:56*am, Mike Schumann wrote: On 8/9/2010 8:43 AM, Steve Freeman wrote: Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a US approved frequency? There is virtually no FLARM in the US. *It is unlikely to take off here, as the biggest threats for mid-airs in the US are between powered aircraft and gliders or other aircraft. It's a chicken and egg situation. *FLARM is only interesting if everyone equips. *No one is going to equip if they don't think that everyone else will. With ADS-B coming out, that is the way to go in the US. *If you buy an ADS-B transceiver, not only will you see other ADS-B equipped aircraft, but, if you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, you will also see all Mode C/S transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC. * With 80-90% of GA aircraft in the US transponder equipped, this gives an immediate benefit to anyone investing in ADS-B (assuming that they have a ground station deployed in their area). -- Mike Schumann Mike, Your points are all well taken. I realize that FLARM has never been accepted in the US up to now, and we all know that ADS-B is coming in 2020 (although I thought there was a "glider" exemption), but with that being said, would it make any sense for FLARM units to be required for gliders competing in any of our nationals (or maybe even in regionals)? As you are aware, we've had several mid-airs between gliders in recent years and perhaps if gliders had been equipped with FLARM units in a nationals or in a regionals, some of these mid-airs might have been prevented.....Just a thought! Thanks - Renny Mike and Renny, a good discussion of the macro view of FLARM and ADS-B. Another view is more personal, for example in my situation- I fly a lot of ridge and mountain in a very narrow altitude band and a lot of clouds. There is not a lot of power traffic in those conditions. I have a transponder but I don't see the Transmit light going off very often and I suspect I am not getting very many radar paints down in the rocks and trees where I like to fly. My greatest risk is from the six other gliders I share the area with, which do not have transponders and will never get them at the current costs; in fairness my threat to them is even higher as I am a low hour pilot. FLARM would go a long way to reducing the risks and at a reasonable cost; PowerFlarm would be my choice as it would also provide protection from ADS-B and transponder equipped threats, but at twice the cost the installed base in my situation would be very much reduced and I stand a better chance of talking my potentially deadly friends into investing in FLARM. 2020 is not soon enough. It is not soon enough for the pilots killed on a regular basis at contests, which we seem to simply accept as an unavoidable risk. With that in mind Mike's statement that FLARM isn't of use (for me) would not be correct. In 2004 my club lost two gliders and a pilot in a collision that would not have happens if they had had FLARM. How do you calculate that cost? Brian |
#7
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Flarm in the US
On 8/9/2010 9:12 AM, Renny wrote:
On Aug 9, 7:56 am, Mike wrote: On 8/9/2010 8:43 AM, Steve Freeman wrote: Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a US approved frequency? There is virtually no FLARM in the US. It is unlikely to take off here, as the biggest threats for mid-airs in the US are between powered aircraft and gliders or other aircraft. It's a chicken and egg situation. FLARM is only interesting if everyone equips. No one is going to equip if they don't think that everyone else will. With ADS-B coming out, that is the way to go in the US. If you buy an ADS-B transceiver, not only will you see other ADS-B equipped aircraft, but, if you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, you will also see all Mode C/S transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC. With 80-90% of GA aircraft in the US transponder equipped, this gives an immediate benefit to anyone investing in ADS-B (assuming that they have a ground station deployed in their area). -- Mike Schumann Mike, Your points are all well taken. I realize that FLARM has never been accepted in the US up to now, and we all know that ADS-B is coming in 2020 (although I thought there was a "glider" exemption), but with that being said, would it make any sense for FLARM units to be required for gliders competing in any of our nationals (or maybe even in regionals)? As you are aware, we've had several mid-airs between gliders in recent years and perhaps if gliders had been equipped with FLARM units in a nationals or in a regionals, some of these mid-airs might have been prevented.....Just a thought! Thanks - Renny Why not require ADS-B units instead. Then you'd get the advantages of FLARM, but you'd also see all of the transponder equipped GA aircraft (assuming that there was a ground station in the area). Now that Navworx is shipping their unit, this could happen tomorrow. I'm sure that someone could talk Navworx into working with the major glide computer manufacturers to provide the necessary interfaces if they knew that this would be worth their while. -- Mike Schumann |
#8
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Flarm in the US
On 8/9/2010 11:23 AM, brianDG303 wrote:
On Aug 9, 7:12 am, wrote: On Aug 9, 7:56 am, Mike wrote: On 8/9/2010 8:43 AM, Steve Freeman wrote: Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a US approved frequency? There is virtually no FLARM in the US. It is unlikely to take off here, as the biggest threats for mid-airs in the US are between powered aircraft and gliders or other aircraft. It's a chicken and egg situation. FLARM is only interesting if everyone equips. No one is going to equip if they don't think that everyone else will. With ADS-B coming out, that is the way to go in the US. If you buy an ADS-B transceiver, not only will you see other ADS-B equipped aircraft, but, if you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, you will also see all Mode C/S transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC. With 80-90% of GA aircraft in the US transponder equipped, this gives an immediate benefit to anyone investing in ADS-B (assuming that they have a ground station deployed in their area). -- Mike Schumann Mike, Your points are all well taken. I realize that FLARM has never been accepted in the US up to now, and we all know that ADS-B is coming in 2020 (although I thought there was a "glider" exemption), but with that being said, would it make any sense for FLARM units to be required for gliders competing in any of our nationals (or maybe even in regionals)? As you are aware, we've had several mid-airs between gliders in recent years and perhaps if gliders had been equipped with FLARM units in a nationals or in a regionals, some of these mid-airs might have been prevented.....Just a thought! Thanks - Renny Mike and Renny, a good discussion of the macro view of FLARM and ADS-B. Another view is more personal, for example in my situation- I fly a lot of ridge and mountain in a very narrow altitude band and a lot of clouds. There is not a lot of power traffic in those conditions. I have a transponder but I don't see the Transmit light going off very often and I suspect I am not getting very many radar paints down in the rocks and trees where I like to fly. My greatest risk is from the six other gliders I share the area with, which do not have transponders and will never get them at the current costs; in fairness my threat to them is even higher as I am a low hour pilot. FLARM would go a long way to reducing the risks and at a reasonable cost; PowerFlarm would be my choice as it would also provide protection from ADS-B and transponder equipped threats, but at twice the cost the installed base in my situation would be very much reduced and I stand a better chance of talking my potentially deadly friends into investing in FLARM. 2020 is not soon enough. It is not soon enough for the pilots killed on a regular basis at contests, which we seem to simply accept as an unavoidable risk. With that in mind Mike's statement that FLARM isn't of use (for me) would not be correct. In 2004 my club lost two gliders and a pilot in a collision that would not have happens if they had had FLARM. How do you calculate that cost? Brian Why not convince your fellow pilots to invest in the Navworx ADS-B transceiver that is now shipping? FLARM in the US is a dead end. ADS-B is the future. If you invest in a Navworx type of device, not only would you see each other, but you will also see other ADS-B equipped GA aircraft, and if you are flying within range of a ground station, ALL transponder equipped aircraft. -- Mike Schumann |
#9
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Flarm in the US
On Aug 9, 9:45*am, Mike Schumann
wrote: Why not require ADS-B units instead. *Then you'd get the advantages of FLARM, but you'd also see all of the transponder equipped GA aircraft (assuming that there was a ground station in the area). Perhaps because glider pilots would be overwhelmed by nuissance alerts when contest flying? I have already experienced my PCAS becoming close to useless as more gliders are fitted with transponders. I don't need another system crying wolf all the time. FLARM uses intelligent alerting based on glider flight characteristics. It has been reported that the nuissance alerting frequency low enough that it is still useful in high glider traffic densities. Andy |
#10
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Flarm in the US
On 8/9/2010 11:57 AM, Andy wrote:
On Aug 9, 9:45 am, Mike wrote: Why not require ADS-B units instead. Then you'd get the advantages of FLARM, but you'd also see all of the transponder equipped GA aircraft (assuming that there was a ground station in the area). Perhaps because glider pilots would be overwhelmed by nuissance alerts when contest flying? I have already experienced my PCAS becoming close to useless as more gliders are fitted with transponders. I don't need another system crying wolf all the time. FLARM uses intelligent alerting based on glider flight characteristics. It has been reported that the nuissance alerting frequency low enough that it is still useful in high glider traffic densities. Andy There are two parts to FLARM; an ADS-B type position reporting broadcast function, and a built in collision warning system. ADS-B transceivers typically do not include any collision warning logic. Instead they are more like modems. They transmit and receive position data in addition to receiving weather info, etc. This information is passed on to some form of graphics display device so that the locations of other aircraft can be shown on a moving map display relative to your own aircraft. The display device, in addition to showing the location of other aircraft, can also be programmed to provide collision warnings. Obviously, the typical flight trajectories of gliders are different than most power aircraft. I suspect that most glider specific moving map vendors will try to match FLARM's logic to minimize false alarms if they elect to provide a collision warning function in addition to just displaying the relative locations of other aircraft. ADS-B is obviously just in its infancy in the US vs FLARM's development in Europe. The encouraging news is that the potential size of the US ADS-B market is much larger than the potential FLARM market in Europe (when you include the GA power market), so there will undoubtedly be lots of innovation in the display devices that will provide the collision warning function. In VFR environments, these devices will not require FAA approvals, so I expect that technical advancements will be very rapid, once low cost ADS-B transceivers become widely available. -- Mike Schumann |
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