The rudder waggle signal does not work

Originally Posted by vaughn[_3_]

"Dan Marotta" wrote in message
...
So... What would you have the tow pilot do, release the glider or, possibly,
crash into the trees? Either way, the glider is down.

Require radios and use them. Compared to gliders, they are dirt cheap.


I've been away from soaring for 9 of the previous 10 years, but it's my
recollection that the rudder wag was not an official signal - only a
suggestion. Maybe it should be made an official signal and tested on BFRs and
check rides.

It's been a few years since I was an active CFIG, but we tested the rudder
waggle on every flight review. I don't recall anyone failing to release when
they got the waggle except for a few cases when they were briefed immediately
before the flight.. As far as I can see, the signal is well intended, but a
complete failure.

Vaughn

Blaming the signal for the pilot doing the wrong thing is just like shooting the messenger. It's encumbent on the individual pilots to actually engage their brains and study and review different aspects of operating a sailplane safely.

If you only engage your brain when in the cockpit you are missing out on reviewing your own flight performances and missing the benefits of visualising and mentally rehearsing vital actions before they are needed.

Colin

Originally Posted by

Isn't everyone missing the cause of this accident and ones like it?

Written, Pre-take-off checklist is all that is needed to prevent this
accident from ever happening. It is the most basic of pilot
duties........


The pilot made at least 5 obvious (easily preventable) errors leading
up to the accident.

1. preflight inspection (usually states spoilers/flaps to take off
position)
2. pre take off check list..."spoilers closed and locked"
3. During tow, Left hand should be on, near, behind, spoiler handle to
sense unwanted spoiler opening
4. Situational awareness of poor climb should result in immediate
spoiler check
5. Pilot should be familiar with signals


Pilot should also include "enmergency plan" in take off check
list ....planning for emergencies such as rope break, tow plane wave
off signal, canopy opening, tow plane loss of power, and spoilers
opening (and signal form tow plane)....none of these should cause any
major concern if they happen...If the pilot is properly prepared..

Cookie

Well said

It takes discipline to do all that and some people just don't do discipline well. It won't catch every problem or save everyone but it's better than not following a rigorous and proven procedure.

Airline flying for example is one of the safest forms of transport going and it is highly procedural.

I come from a place where we do CBSIFTCB as checks and the best thing that happened while I spent some years away from soaring was the additiion of E for Eventualities to the end of the checks to review briefly before the launch the 'what ifs'

Colin

On Jul 22, 7:39*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 22, 3:49*pm, "





wrote:
Isn't everyone missing the cause of this accident and ones like it?

Written, Pre-take-off checklist is all that is needed to prevent this
accident from ever happening. *It is the most basic of pilot
duties........

The pilot made at least 5 obvious (easily preventable) errors leading
up to the accident.

1. preflight inspection (usually states spoilers/flaps to take off
position)
2. pre take off check list..."spoilers closed and locked"
3. During tow, Left hand should be on, near, behind, spoiler handle to
sense unwanted spoiler opening
4. Situational awareness of poor climb should result in immediate
spoiler check
5. Pilot should be familiar with signals

Pilot should also include "enmergency plan" in take off check
list ....planning for emergencies such as rope break, tow plane wave
off signal, canopy opening, tow plane loss of power, and spoilers
opening (and signal form tow plane)....none of these should cause any
major concern if they happen...If the pilot is properly prepared..

Cookie

I appreciate the comment, but broadening the discussion is more a
distraction to this than a help. One way of making sure something
really broken is not fixed is to keep making the problem bigger. Bad
things happen and when they do there needs to be a mechanism,
hopefully a practiced plan of action, to handle them. The causes of
these fatalities is really releasing low/in an a bad position. Fix
that problem and people won't get killed. In may cases (with powerful
enough tow planes) they might just be embarrassed and the glider pilot
ends up having to buy the tow pilot a beer that night because the tow
plane had to struggle to tow them for a while.

We all need the radio and signal procedure chain to work as
effectively as it can possibly do. That includes getting radios
properly installed in gliders and tow planes and properly using them,
tow pilots being trained to think when to most safely to use a radio
and signal followup if needed, and us community of glider pilots to
get our heads out of our collective asses on the broad lack of
proficiency with in-flight signals.

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You guys are simply amazing....

So far you have "blamed" the accident on

lack of radio

the rudder signal

The lack of good instruction

the topilots' use of the signal


everything to divert responsibility away from the glider pilot and on
to something/someone else

Cookie

On Jul 23, 5:21*am, "
wrote:
On Jul 22, 7:39*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:





On Jul 22, 3:49*pm, "

wrote:
Isn't everyone missing the cause of this accident and ones like it?

Written, Pre-take-off checklist is all that is needed to prevent this
accident from ever happening. *It is the most basic of pilot
duties........

The pilot made at least 5 obvious (easily preventable) errors leading
up to the accident.

1. preflight inspection (usually states spoilers/flaps to take off
position)
2. pre take off check list..."spoilers closed and locked"
3. During tow, Left hand should be on, near, behind, spoiler handle to
sense unwanted spoiler opening
4. Situational awareness of poor climb should result in immediate
spoiler check
5. Pilot should be familiar with signals

Pilot should also include "enmergency plan" in take off check
list ....planning for emergencies such as rope break, tow plane wave
off signal, canopy opening, tow plane loss of power, and spoilers
opening (and signal form tow plane)....none of these should cause any
major concern if they happen...If the pilot is properly prepared..

Cookie

I appreciate the comment, but broadening the discussion is more a
distraction to this than a help. One way of making sure something
really broken is not fixed is to keep making the problem bigger. Bad
things happen and when they do there needs to be a mechanism,
hopefully a practiced plan of action, to handle them. The causes of
these fatalities is really releasing low/in an a bad position. Fix
that problem and people won't get killed. In may cases (with powerful
enough tow planes) they might just be embarrassed and the glider pilot
ends up having to buy the tow pilot a beer that night because the tow
plane had to struggle to tow them for a while.

We all need the radio and signal procedure chain to work as
effectively as it can possibly do. That includes getting radios
properly installed in gliders and tow planes and properly using them,
tow pilots being trained to think when to most safely to use a radio
and signal followup if needed, and us community of glider pilots to
get our heads out of our collective asses on the broad lack of
proficiency with in-flight signals.

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You guys are simply amazing....

So far you have "blamed" the accident on

*lack of radio

the rudder signal

The lack of good instruction

the topilots' use of the signal

everything to divert responsibility away from the glider pilot and on
to something/someone else

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just re read.......not powerful enough tow plane is also a problem..

There are only two possible in-flight signals initiated by the tow
pilot.....wing rock, rudder waggle...that's it.

I learned these in about lesson two of my training and have remembered
them ever since . I teach these to my students and they seem to have
no trouble remembering. It's not hard.

To me, a visual signal is a far better form of communication than a
radio braodcast.

The visual signal is quick, simple, to the point, obvious, etc....

Somebody already stated the possible "possible problems with relying
on radio"...there are many....

The low tech solution wins out by far!


Cookie

On Jul 23, 5:33*am, "
wrote:

I learned these in about lesson two of my training and have remembered
them ever since . * I teach these to my students and they seem to have
no trouble remembering. *It's not hard.

[...]
The low tech solution wins out by far!

Cookie

Right. And that part of the lesson might start out, "there are two
things the tow plane can signal you about, 1) something's wrong with
the tow plane, 2) something's wrong with your glider...."

This is simple as dirt.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Jul 22, 10:18*pm, Pat Russell wrote:

The towplane rudder waggle has been directly
responsible for two fatalities!

A typical aviation accident chain of events happens and you conclude
this? Really?

-Evan Ludemn / T8

On Jul 23, 2:33*am, "
wrote:
There are only two possible in-flight signals initiated by the tow
pilot.....wing rock, rudder waggle...that's it.

I learned these in about lesson two of my training and have remembered
them ever since . * I teach these to my students and they seem to have
no trouble remembering. *It's not hard.

To me, a visual signal is a far better form of communication than a
radio braodcast.

The visual signal is quick, simple, to the point, obvious, etc....

Somebody already stated the possible "possible problems with relying
on radio"...there are many....

The low tech solution wins out by far!

Cookie

The low tech solution is not "winning by far"-it's a blatant failure
and why we are talking about this.

It's great how things should be clear and should work. Except they are
not and don't and people are being repeatedly killed by the same
problem.

Darryl

A few thoughts.

Assuming any human has the potential to panic and become dumb during a
stressful situation, why don't we do what the airlines do? They
practice the emergency over and over until it is muscle memory and
becomes an "abnormal", not an emergency. How? Personally I think
Condor flight simulator can help a lot. After not soaring for a week,
I always use Condor to aerotow with strong crosswinds from various
direction. With full water it is very difficult. I release when I
get in trouble on the ground, and I talk to myself out loud. "No
remaining runway, field to the right, right 180 etc." I do all the
checklists out loud. Condor does a wing rock for release, so that
burned in pretty well. A sim set up with random failures helped me
with my multi rating. After the sim, I was always waiting for that
failure anticipating and expecting it to happen. I wish Condor could
be programmed for failures to help with safety like other home sims
can.

On the radio thing, I find it fairly hard to hear radios in gliders,
and I miss calls too often. Power planes with headsets are
wonderful. I'm considering some kind of headset that works for
soaring. (suggestions appreciated)

Many of us look at accidents and think "I would never do that", but
that's dangerous thinking. You have to train for the time when Mr.
Panic is at the helm. Aaron

You guys are simply amazing....

So far you have "blamed" the accident on

lack of radio

the rudder signal

The lack of good instruction

the topilots' use of the signal


everything to divert responsibility away from the glider pilot and on
to something/someone else

Cookie[/quote]


Well, at least no one has blamed George Bush for this yet.

Walt