The rudder waggle signal does not work

On Jul 26, 9:02*am, "vaughn" wrote:
wrote in message

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Hand on spoiler shoud be for all flights....ballast or not....

NO! *In general, you should not have your fingers wrapped around the spoiler
handle on launch, any more than you should have your hand around the release
handle. *A bump or a startle could cause you to anadvertantly open the spoilers.
The ergomatics of gliders differ, but I generally prefer to put a fist behind
the spoiler lever. *This assures the spoilers stay closed and (incidently)
anchors my hand in the general vicinity of the release.

Radio now requires additional training and practice to learn the
established "standards": of radio use....

...Which any glider pilot should be easily capable of learning...The normal
method that humans use to communicate is the human voice. *Nothing is simpler or
more natural for us to process.

Radio requires new layers of complexity to the system....such as
chargers....ground personel etc...

Sorry, that's just nonsense. *Radios are cheap, simple to use and reliable.
Further, they are necessary because we share the sky with airplanes, virtually
all of which are radio equipped. * It's perfectly reasonable for them to expect
that we have them too. *Would you have us eliminate everything from our cockpits
that the Wright Broothers wouldn't recognize?

Vaughn

You didn't get the small print...

Hand on/ near/ behind the spoiler....

On as in when the guys use open spoiler for initial take off.....near
or behind spoiler handle so you don't jerk them open, but can feel
them open if they were not locked...(fit like you say works well)....

Point is "Cockpit management" pilot is responsible to keep spoiler
closed during tow....

Radios reliable??? Funny, my job for today (I work for avionics
shop) is to find out what's wrong with 4 glider's radios for a local
club......

Cookie

On Jul 26, 5:20*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Jul 26, 4:34*am, "





wrote:
On Jul 26, 1:15*am, Ramy wrote:

On Jul 25, 5:56*pm, "

wrote:
On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy wrote:

On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "

wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy wrote:

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember.....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie

Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

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Ramy.....

Let me ask you this...

Do you know what the rudder waggle signal means??
If you get the rudder waggle signal shortly after take off...what
would you do???

Do you know any glider pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
signal means???
Do you know any tow pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
signal means??

Just asking..

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

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Of course I know the signals. And so did most pilots who failed to
recognize it correctly during emergency or even during BFR, as clearly
evident from reading those threads and hearing about incidents and
accidents over the years. This includes very experience pilots and
CFIG's. Most of them lived to tell about it, but quiet a few didn't.
Based on my anecdotal statistics, 80%-90% of those reading this will
fail to recognize the signal correctly in true emergency. I am hoping
that at least those who are following these threads are now more aware
of this potential deadly confusion and will develope a reaction to
always check their spoilers first if the tow goes wrong or if the tow
pilot signaling something. It only takes a split of a second extra
before deciding to release.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

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Don't understand your logic here......if the guys knew the
signals....the would have closed the spoilers...

Rudder waggle = close spoiler.....

Yes by reading this thread pilots should consider the importance of

Doing a proper pre flight
proper take off check list
keeping hand near or on spoiler handle
having situational awareness when poor climb... *check spoiler
Knowing signals.....
Developing an emergency plan tailered to each flight

Not expecting a 'magic voice" to come over the radio to save them once
they got themselves into a pinch...

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

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I give up. Maybe someone else can explain Cookie what I try to point
out about confusion and tunnel vision in emergency which can and did
happen to many pilots, including very experienced pilots and CFIGs.
( and no, it did not happen to me yet, but I am not sure I am immuned)
I even had a tow pilot who is very familiar with tow signals getting
confused and asked me why I am against the rudder waggle release
immidiatly signal...
All I am asking is not to give a rudder wag until at safe altitude if
possible.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

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Confusion during emergency.......

I though being a pilot menat being able to handle emergencies.....

Plus where's the "pressure" when you get the "close spoiler signal"

If you are on tow....fat dumb and happy, with the spoiler open
(unknown to you) then you have no pressure at all....you think it is
a normal tow......If you get a signal...respond tothe signal....


If the tow is not gong well....like poor climb.....then you may gell
some "pressure"...."something is not right"....put again a good pilot
would "check spoiler"


Cookie

On Jul 26, 5:34*pm, Tony wrote:
Nothing to argue with there. I've always felt that this was the
prudent way to use the rudder waggle.

The accident that started this discussion was a cessna 150 with 150 hp
with the Capstan in tow. *I believe the Capstan has at least 45 degree
if not vertical speed limiting airbrakes. It is approved for cloud
flying. I flew it at IVSM with Shane, it took hardly any brake to make
a normal approach. I wouldn't be surprised that if the brakes on the
Capstan were full open the combination could not climb



All I am asking is not to give a rudder wag until at safe altitude if
possible.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

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So these guys were basically screwed right from the onset.....

But "standard" procedures would have prevented the
problem....Checklists etc...

Cookie

I give up. Maybe someone else can explain Cookie what I try to point
out about confusion and tunnel vision in emergency which can and did
happen to many pilots, including very experienced pilots and CFIGs.
( and no, it did not happen to me yet, but I am not sure I am immuned)
I even had a tow pilot who is very familiar with tow signals getting
confused and asked me why I am against the rudder waggle release
immidiatly signal...
All I am asking is not to give a rudder wag until at safe altitude if
possible.

Ramy

---------------------------------------------------------

Well, now, that's a reasonable request. But what I've heard from you
previously was demands for radios, eliminating signals, more safety
regulations, claims that it's the fault of the signals and not the glider
pilot. It's only the glider pilot who pulls the release in the glider and
only he can decide when.

Do your checklist whether written or from memory, formal or informal as long
as it works for you. Be prepared for the unexpected, KNOW what open
spoilers sound and feel like and how to handle the problem (it's not an
emergency unless you make it so). Just don't ask me to adhere to more
unnecessary rules and don't blame some visual signal for my mistakes.

For my part when I'm towing, I won't wave you off unless MY safety is at
stake, but if you force me to drag you to a "safe release altitude" because
you're too dumb to realize that your spoilers are open, I will NOT be towing
you again. Note: The previous was not directed at you, Ramy, but at anyone
dumb enough to hang on for 5 or 10 minutes with open spoilers while the tow
plane struggles to climb.

Dan

wrote in message
...
Radios reliable??? Funny, my job for today (I work for avionics
shop)

It so happens that I ran a radio shop for about 20 years. I know a bit about
radios, and I stand behind my statement.

It's odd that the rest of the aviation world finds radios to be plenty
reliable. If I fly my Cezzna to the local towered airport, Part 91 requires me
to call for clearance on my "unreliable" radio. They will also answer using
their own "unreliable" radio, even though they have a perfectly good "reliable"
light gun.

Vaughn

On Jul 27, 9:56*am, "vaughn" wrote:
wrote in message

...

Radios reliable??? * Funny, my job for today *(I work for avionics
shop)

* *It so happens that I ran a radio shop for about 20 years. *I know a bit about
radios, and I stand behind my statement.

* *It's odd that the rest of the aviation world finds radios to be plenty
reliable. *If I fly my Cezzna to the local towered airport, *Part 91 requires me
to call for clearance on my "unreliable" radio. *They will also answer using
their own "unreliable" radio, even though they have a perfectly good "reliable"
light gun.

Vaughn

I'm not sure the rest of aviation finds radio's "plenty reliable". I
think the operating phrase is "convenient when they work". Even if
your radios are in great shape, just one stuck mike can render a
common frequency unusable. A few weekends ago we were 'entertained'
by an instructors patter for over an hour due to a stuck mike making
the CTAF unusable.

One spoilers-open incident I observed, I think everyone on the
airfield with access to a radio started yelling at once and so the
glider pilot heard nothing useful. (Folks, only the tow pilot is
responsible for alerting the glider pilot to the problem - everybody
else keep your fingers off the PTT switch.)

If you want to replace the rudder waggle, then some other visual
signal has to be invented. I find it hard to imagine another as
good. Maybe a big LED sign on the tugs wings flashing "SPOILERS!".

On Jul 27, 11:56*am, "vaughn" wrote:
wrote in message

...

Radios reliable??? * Funny, my job for today *(I work for avionics
shop)

* *It so happens that I ran a radio shop for about 20 years. *I know a bit about
radios, and I stand behind my statement.

* *It's odd that the rest of the aviation world finds radios to be plenty
reliable. *If I fly my Cezzna to the local towered airport, *Part 91 requires me
to call for clearance on my "unreliable" radio. *They will also answer using
their own "unreliable" radio, even though they have a perfectly good "reliable"
light gun.

Vaughn

Dude.....

You ran a radio shop?....so you never repaired a radio? How did you
make any money??

But don't worry about safety...the radio will save you!

Cookie

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 03:06:29 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


Radios reliable??? Funny, my job for today (I work for avionics
shop) is to find out what's wrong with 4 glider's radios for a local
club......


Sometimes I wonder why things that work all over the world don't seem
to work in the US... like radios in gliders.

A failed radio is pretty much unknown in the part of the world where I
live. I didn't know that German technology was that far advanced.


On my airfield a radio call stopped a pilot from ruining his day twice
within the last six weeks.
Says a lot about the pilot - but he's the type of guy who would be a
typical candidate to confuse rudder waggle and release unexpectedly.





Cheers
Andreas

wrote in message
...
You ran a radio shop?....so you never repaired a radio? How did you
make any money??

I ran a radio shop for a municipality. These were public safety radios that
lives depended on, more that a thousand of them. Yes, a few broke (or were
broken or drowned by their users). Most we never saw again except when they
needed to be reinstalled or reprogrammed. They were damn reliable gadgets, even
though they are far more complicated than an aviation radio.

Radios aren't perfect, but neither is the rudder wag signal. Occasionally
miscues from that signal seems to kill a perfectly good pilot. and/or wreck a
perfectly good glider. If you don't see that as a problem, then we can agree to
disagree and get on with our lives.

But don't worry about safety...the radio will save you!

That really doesn't do much to advance the discussion does it?

Vaughn

"Andreas Maurer" wrote in message
...
A failed radio is pretty much unknown in the part of the world where I
live. I didn't know that German technology was that far advanced.

My guess is that our Japanese radios work just as well as your Japanese radios.

Vaughn