Production rates?

Hi Janusz,

Keep us informed about polish gliders&manufacturer! Don't care about
comments like this. Yes, your patriotism can be felt from your posts but
nothing wrong with it.
Regards,

/Janos

ps: I also tried paragliding and hanggliding but soaring seems to the
real solution for me


Libelle lover wrote:

I think most people are already tired of your idiotic monologues
Mr.Kesik, give it a break.

OK thanks ...

I am just trying to get a feel for which factors influence the lower cost of
the Polish built sailplane. Obviously it is not materials. Presumably mostly
labour ......

The other thing I am curious about is certification costs in Poland ... I
assume that the original certification authority for the SZD gliders is the
Polish Airworthiness Authority ??? (BTW what is this called) Is this
correct ? Do the Polish Authorities try to recover costs by charging
applicants to process glider certification projects or is this a service
provided by the government gratis (free) ... certification costs are of
course a major issue in most other countries. Usually airworthiness
authorities bill for each hour spent which can rapidly up.

What is the procedure for the certification of a glider in Poland ? For
instance can you give use an approximate outline of the process that the
PW-5 another recent certification project would have gone through ...

Does Poland have any bilateral agreements to facilitate certification in
other countries once polish certification is achieved ?

Who controls the production of the gliders ... does Poland have a system
like the FAA Production Certificate where the government airworthiness
authority is hands off or to they still inspect each and every glider
produced prior to issue of an airworthiness certificate.




"Janusz Kesik" wrote in message
...

U¿ytkownik "Janusz Kesik" napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci ...
U¿ytkownik "smjmitchell" napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci u...
Janusz,

Could I ask if you know how many hours it takes the SZD factory to
build
a
Jantar or any of the other composite gliders they produce ? Where do
the
composite materials (fiber, resin and core) come from, the Easter bloc
or
from the West ???

Okay, now I know that the materials, for 99% all of them are made in the
Western Europe. When I'll get the information on workhours, I'll post it
here.


--
Janusz Kesik
Poland
to reply put my name.surname[at]gazeta.pl
-------------------------------------
See Wroclaw (Breslau) in photography,
The XIX Century, the Festung Breslau, and photos taken today.
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl

U¿ytkownik "smjmitchell" napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci u...

I am just trying to get a feel for which factors influence the lower cost
of
the Polish built sailplane. Obviously it is not materials. Presumably
mostly
labour ......

Presumlbly yes, but not only. There are much more factors that make Poland a
good place to move the production, or moreover services like accounting,
call centres (generally so-called back office). Just consider a few:

1. Low labour cost, that we had made clear previously. By the way I believe
that the SZD staff is still here, and could be contacted and hired again by
the production of gliders or other glassfibre products, as they're skilled
and know the technology. Add to this lower cost of property, office space
rent (e.g 8$/month in a A class office building in Breslau (Wroclaw) - one
of the most dynamic cities).
http://paiz.gov.pl/index/?id=f457c54...ecee47145a72c0

2. Well educated workforce with lots of university/polytechnic university
graduates on the job market. There are almost two million students now in
the UNIs, just like at this faculty:
http://www.pwr.wroc.pl/eng/files/w_chemia.htm

3. Lower than in the Western Europe "additional cost of labour". I mean
social security fees etc. We also work more hours than e.g. Germans. When
they enjoy the 36h/week, we work average for some 48-50h/week. A Boston
Consulting Group report linked below:
http://paiz.gov.pl/index/?id=b2dd140...087a29b2e66034

4. LOTS of tax incentives. First, the 19% flat rate corporate income tax:
http://paiz.gov.pl/index/?id=a8f15ed...71943adc8015cf

Plus... add to this lots of other incentives in Special Economic Zones /
Economic Activity Zones, just like these:

http://paiz.gov.pl/index/?id=43dd49b...3e94468ff8df1e

http://www.ksse.com.pl/index-eng.html

http://www.invest-park.com.pl/

http://leszno.pl/leszno2/gospodarka/...al_zone_en.ppt
By the way, this one is located at Leszno, which is well known in soaring
community.


The other thing I am curious about is certification costs in Poland ... I
assume that the original certification authority for the SZD gliders is
the
Polish Airworthiness Authority ??? (BTW what is this called) Is this
correct ? Do the Polish Authorities try to recover costs by charging
applicants to process glider certification projects or is this a service
provided by the government gratis (free) ... certification costs are of
course a major issue in most other countries. Usually airworthiness
authorities bill for each hour spent which can rapidly up.

Well, it is hard question to me, as I don't have much experience with
airworthiness authority, but I believe it's still the producer to make the
flight tests, which are then base to the issuing of the certificate. So I
believe this is still included in the cost.
The body which is issuing certificates is Urzad Lotnictwa Cywilnego:
http://www.ulc.gov.pl


What is the procedure for the certification of a glider in Poland ? For
instance can you give use an approximate outline of the process that the
PW-5 another recent certification project would have gone through ...

I don't have such an document, but I believe is has to comply with JAR-22
requirements.

Does Poland have any bilateral agreements to facilitate certification in
other countries once polish certification is achieved ?

I belive yes, but this is rather a kind of question which should be asked
either to ULC, or one of the producers, just like the SZD, or Marganski
works.

Who controls the production of the gliders ... does Poland have a system
like the FAA Production Certificate where the government airworthiness
authority is hands off or to they still inspect each and every glider
produced prior to issue of an airworthiness certificate.

It's for 99% hands off, they're just sending the papers, and make the maiden
flight.

Finally I got a reply from one of the guys who are well oriented in the
production of gliders, and they say that the production of Jantar Standard
2, of the late 12'th serie involved some 760hrs of work. It was in 1982, so
I believe some things have changed. Take the worker's productivity and newer
materials for instance.
On the other hand, I have been said that production of Junior takes only two
days, so the production process could be completed in one day (involving two
working shifts) topping at some 150 a year.

The materials used now are mostly made by Interglass and Conticell,
Schneufler L-285 resin, however still the locally produced Epidian 52&53
resins can be used instead which are much more affordable.

With kindest regards,


--
Janusz Kesik
Poland
to reply put my name.surname[at]gazeta.pl
-------------------------------------
See Wroclaw (Breslau) in photography,
The XIX Century, the Festung Breslau, and photos taken today.
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl


"Janusz Kesik" wrote in message
...

U¿ytkownik "Janusz Kesik" napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci ...
U¿ytkownik "smjmitchell" napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci u...
Janusz,

Could I ask if you know how many hours it takes the SZD factory to
build
a
Jantar or any of the other composite gliders they produce ? Where
do
the
composite materials (fiber, resin and core) come from, the Easter
bloc
or
from the West ???

Janusz Kesik wrote:

3. Lower than in the Western Europe "additional cost of labour". I mean
social security fees etc. We also work more hours than e.g. Germans. When
they enjoy the 36h/week, we work average for some 48-50h/week.

Don't be sure about this A worked in several countries, Germany also
but I can't see this difference. Oh sorry, China was a different story...

/Janos

Uzytkownik "Janos Bauer" napisal w wiadomosci
...
Janusz Kesik wrote:

3. Lower than in the Western Europe "additional cost of labour". I mean
social security fees etc. We also work more hours than e.g. Germans.
When
they enjoy the 36h/week, we work average for some 48-50h/week.

Don't be sure about this A worked in several countries, Germany also
but I can't see this difference. Oh sorry, China was a different story...

I believe it depends on a certain company. And China... well that's a really
different story, also that its workforce mostly comprises of low qualified
workers who have to be taught a lot (which also costs a lot and takes a lot
of time).

Regards,


--
Janusz Kesik
Poland
to reply put my name.surname[at]gazeta.pl
-------------------------------------
See Wroclaw (Breslau) in photography,
The XIX Century, the Festung Breslau, and photos taken today.
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl

Janusz:
Thank you for your continued input. Your contributions to this thread are
appreciated. Please ignore the "Ugly American" comment (if it was an
American). I guess all countries have a few rude and inconsiderate types,
even in the soaring fraternity.
Ed Byars

"Janos Bauer" wrote in message
...
Hi Janusz,

Keep us informed about polish gliders&manufacturer! Don't care about
comments like this. Yes, your patriotism can be felt from your posts but
nothing wrong with it.
Regards,

/Janos

ps: I also tried paragliding and hanggliding but soaring seems to the
real solution for me


Libelle lover wrote:

I think most people are already tired of your idiotic monologues
Mr.Kesik, give it a break.

One of the hopes of the Sparrowhawk was presumably to significantly reduce
the amount of labor involved. Of the 10 production run modern gliders
I'm aware of, the Sparrowhawk seems to most significantly contrast
the time-honored build process of other gliders, like the SZD 55-1 .

Which is why I'm surprised that the Sparrowhawk price
has increased (not decreased) so much since Serial # 1.
Eric Greenwell's article seemed to indicate
production on the order of weeks, certainly not the 1400 man-hours
described here. Do the materials really cost 40% more than they did
several years ago or is this a labor cost increase, or is it
payments on sunk engineering costs?

One wonders what would happen if the Sparrowhawk construction concept
were adopted in a country with very low labor costs. Perhaps a
(strange) side benefit may be that US certification of a Polish
Sparrowhawk might be easier than doing the same thing inside the US.

Uniting low cost (overseas) labor with excellent innovation.
Van's does this for its quickbuild kits, apparently with good commercial
success. I'd love to see what SZD would do, in terms of price,
producing a Sparrowhawk... Maybe an idea for the next World Class?

I'm astonished that the 55-1 takes 1400 man-hours to built.
I had absolutely no idea it was that consumptive...

In article ,
Janusz Kesik wrote:
I don't care such comments, and well, the most funny is that I wouldn't have
noticed that post, if someone hasn't commented that. It looks like this guy
has withdrawn his 'not so nice' posting from the server sooner than I did
retrieved fresh postings from my news server. Anyway, thanks for the support
for all of You my gliding friends.

Finally, as asked I feel obliged to deliver the final reply that the total
working hours involved in complete (from the first minute of work, to the
very end of finish) in case of production of the SZD-55, total at 1400
hours. So, well... it's a huge amount, and the lower cost of labour helps so
much indeed to keep it's price still 4500Euros lower than the *predicted*
price of the LS-4 which is going to re-enter production according to the
news I have red on the R.A.S.

With kindest regards,


--
Janusz Kesik
Poland
to reply put my name.surname[at]gazeta.pl
-------------------------------------
See Wroclaw (Breslau) in photography,
The XIX Century, the Festung Breslau, and photos taken today.
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl



U¿ytkownik "Ed Byars" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Janusz:
Thank you for your continued input. Your contributions to this thread are
appreciated. Please ignore the "Ugly American" comment (if it was an
American). I guess all countries have a few rude and inconsiderate types,
even in the soaring fraternity.
Ed Byars





--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

I don't care such comments, and well, the most funny is that I wouldn't have
noticed that post, if someone hasn't commented that. It looks like this guy
has withdrawn his 'not so nice' posting from the server sooner than I did
retrieved fresh postings from my news server. Anyway, thanks for the support
for all of You my gliding friends.

Finally, as asked I feel obliged to deliver the final reply that the total
working hours involved in complete (from the first minute of work, to the
very end of finish) in case of production of the SZD-55, total at 1400
hours. So, well... it's a huge amount, and the lower cost of labour helps so
much indeed to keep it's price still 4500Euros lower than the *predicted*
price of the LS-4 which is going to re-enter production according to the
news I have red on the R.A.S.

With kindest regards,


--
Janusz Kesik
Poland
to reply put my name.surname[at]gazeta.pl
-------------------------------------
See Wroclaw (Breslau) in photography,
The XIX Century, the Festung Breslau, and photos taken today.
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl



U¿ytkownik "Ed Byars" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
. ..
Janusz:
Thank you for your continued input. Your contributions to this thread are
appreciated. Please ignore the "Ugly American" comment (if it was an
American). I guess all countries have a few rude and inconsiderate types,
even in the soaring fraternity.
Ed Byars

"Janusz Kesik" wrote in message
...
I don't care such comments, and well, the most funny is that I wouldn't
have
noticed that post, if someone hasn't commented that. It looks like this
guy
has withdrawn his 'not so nice' posting from the server sooner than I did
retrieved fresh postings from my news server. Anyway, thanks for the
support
for all of You my gliding friends.

Finally, as asked I feel obliged to deliver the final reply that the total
working hours involved in complete (from the first minute of work, to the
very end of finish) in case of production of the SZD-55, total at 1400
hours. So, well... it's a huge amount, and the lower cost of labour helps
so
much indeed to keep it's price still 4500Euros lower than the *predicted*
price of the LS-4 which is going to re-enter production according to the
news I have red on the R.A.S.

With kindest regards,


--
Janusz Kesik
Poland
to reply put my name.surname[at]gazeta.pl
-------------------------------------
See Wroclaw (Breslau) in photography,
The XIX Century, the Festung Breslau, and photos taken today.
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl

Janusz, thank you for the information. It is very interesting.

Hypothetically, if the very skilled workers require 1400 hours to produce a
SZD-55, then there must be opportunities for production engineers to reduce
that time.

If process and materials improvements could slash 700 hours from the
building time, the most if not all the glider cost and availability issues
could be resolved. This is where bright people could make a real
contribution to the sport.

Of course, these process and materials improvements would have to work at
both small and large production numbers so that if a small production run
glider became very popular, the production could ramp up to meet demand.

Bill Daniels

Hypothetically, if the very skilled workers require 1400 hours to produce
a
SZD-55, then there must be opportunities for production engineers to
reduce
that time.

As we see, it depends a lot on the type of sailplane which is being build.
When we compare that to the 760 hours needed to complete the Jantar Standard
3 this is the slashing of the half You're writing of. And... cosidering that
these 760hrs has been counted in 1982yr., I believe without any problem it
could be reduced to let's say 600 hours. When we compare the cost of the
hour in Germany (~30Euro/h), and in Poland (~2.5-3.0Euro/h). That makes a
huge difference.

Then... add to this a low-cost workforce, and this may reduce the prices a
lot. The molds for th Jantars are still available, and I believe the
producer would be happy to respond an inquiry how much could cost a single
glider when let's say an order for a few pieces would be placed. I am sure
it would be veeeery attractive.

Regards,


--
Janusz Kesik
Poland
to reply put my name.surname[at]gazeta.pl
-------------------------------------
See Wroclaw (Breslau) in photography,
The XIX Century, the Festung Breslau, and photos taken today.
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl