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#1
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Puchaz Spinning thread that might be of interest in light of the recent accident.
http://www.gliderforum.com/thread-vi...id=167&start=1
This might be of interest when discussing the Puch and its spinning. Condolences to the family and friends of the victims of the recent crash. Regards Al |
#2
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In article ,
JJ Sinclair wrote: It's winter, I'm bored and I haven't started any good controversies (this year) so here goes: In the early 50's the USAF had a policy to give jump training to all aircrew personnel. They soon learned that they were getting twice the injuries in training that they were experiencing in real bail-outs. They decided to stop the actual jump training and just give PLF and kit deployment, etc training. So, JJ asks, In light of recent events that show its been reining Puchaz's, Do we really want to teach full blown spins? Isn't spin entry and immediate recovery, all we should be doing? JJ Sinclair With three times as many fatalities in training than flying (helicopters), one wonders the wisdom of practicing hundreds of autorotations during helicopter training as well. |
#3
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It's winter, I'm bored and I haven't started any good controversies (this year)
so here goes: In the early 50's the USAF had a policy to give jump training to all aircrew personnel. They soon learned that they were getting twice the injuries in training that they were experiencing in real bail-outs. They decided to stop the actual jump training and just give PLF and kit deployment, etc training. So, JJ asks, In light of recent events that show its been reining Puchaz's, Do we really want to teach full blown spins? Isn't spin entry and immediate recovery, all we should be doing? JJ Sinclair |
#4
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Gee. This looks like a nice place to misbehave:
The military trains people with NO flying time for the purpose of accomplishing a mission. Those missions are not all expected to end with a landing back home but need to succeed in other ways. On the other hand, commercial aviation and sport aviation quite often involve pilots with much more flying time and each and every flight is expected to end safely. So, while ignorance is bliss, training is the only way to improve ones chances of completing a flight safely. While insurance companies do not want helicopter trainees to practice full autorotations, your only chance for walking without a cane is knowing how to do one when you need to. So, the first time you do one is the first time you need to. Not very smart. Being an old geezer, I have a million examples. If the training is killing people, then maybe the training procedures need tweaking. But canceling training is a very bad idea. In the end, the Air Force spun a zillion of us out of the sky in T-37's with only a few deaths along the way. We were required to speak and perform the T-37 spin recovery procedures with a calm voice while the little ******* started wrapping up. But to this day, I can recite the -37 spin recovery procedure in my sleep and perform it without thinking twice. "Mark James Boyd" wrote in message news:401166ad$1@darkstar... In article , JJ Sinclair wrote: It's winter, I'm bored and I haven't started any good controversies (this year) so here goes: In the early 50's the USAF had a policy to give jump training to all aircrew personnel. They soon learned that they were getting twice the injuries in training that they were experiencing in real bail-outs. They decided to stop the actual jump training and just give PLF and kit deployment, etc training. So, JJ asks, In light of recent events that show its been reining Puchaz's, Do we really want to teach full blown spins? Isn't spin entry and immediate recovery, all we should be doing? JJ Sinclair With three times as many fatalities in training than flying (helicopters), one wonders the wisdom of practicing hundreds of autorotations during helicopter training as well. |
#5
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OK JJ, I'll bite (sorta)-
With spin entry training being done so often in benign-handling ships, what in fact are we teaching/learning? 'Pull back, Pull back, okay kick in full rudder'-and the thinking might go-'Gee, how does anyone get into a spin, this is way to much work' How does this apply the first time someone gets in a ship that may fall off on its own? At 18:24 23 January 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote: In article , JJ Sinclair wrote: It's winter, I'm bored and I haven't started any good controversies (this year) so here goes: In the early 50's the USAF had a policy to give jump training to all aircrew personnel. They soon learned that they were getting twice the injuries in training that they were experiencing in real bail-outs. They decided to stop the actual jump training and just give PLF and kit deployment, etc training. So, JJ asks, In light of recent events that show its been reining Puchaz's, Do we really want to teach full blown spins? Isn't spin entry and immediate recovery, all we should be doing? JJ Sinclair With three times as many fatalities in training than flying (helicopters), one wonders the wisdom of practicing hundreds of autorotations during helicopter training as well. |
#6
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Do
we really want to teach full blown spins? Isn't spin entry and immediate recovery, all we should be doing Exactly! Bob |
#7
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In message , Bob Salvo
writes Do we really want to teach full blown spins? Isn't spin entry and immediate recovery, all we should be doing Exactly! Bob Well yes, and no. I think that the problem a lot of people have is that they are taught spinning in simple benign aeroplanes that you have to TELL to spin and come out with no encouragement. Whilst this is good for the basics I truly believe that train and train and train to do the harder stuff in aeroplanes (with appropriate guidance and instructors) that have the capability to bite is the only way to improve peoples' capabilities to the stage that they can handle bad situations. Too many people think they can deal with nasty situations because they learnt (for instance) spinning in a K13 or 150 or similar. Several years ago we had a group of power pilots, of the normal sport aviation type - nothing extreme, turn up for some trial flights in gliders. Several of them asked to be shown some spins and a suitable instructor took them round. They were totally disorientated and didn't know what to do. They had gone through all of the current training at the time and as far as we know were good pilots. The person in this thread who said that the training itself may be the issue rather than doing training is, I believe, right. The old adage "train hard fight easy" is true just about everywhere, the point is "train hard" As to the statement above. Yes, as soon as you know you are in a spin, get out of it, if you can. However, learning all the other stuff properly can only help. Cheers Robin A very low hours pilot who has had enough shocks to realise how much he has to learn. -- Robin Birch |
#8
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Folks would like to plod through life thinking that they will
recognize the good old nose up, stall, kick rudder, this must be the entry to a spin, I can recover from this. Who wouldn't. The one we like to pound into their memory is the nose level on the horizon, cross control (over shooting the final)feed in top aileron, and away you go into the nicest spin entry. Recognize it and recover. We don't need to let it wind up either. Again a good cirriculum lets you do this training with a high degree of safety, if the instructor is properly trained. Stewart Kissel wrote in message ... OK JJ, I'll bite (sorta)- With spin entry training being done so often in benign-handling ships, what in fact are we teaching/learning? 'Pull back, Pull back, okay kick in full rudder'-and the thinking might go-'Gee, how does anyone get into a spin, this is way to much work' How does this apply the first time someone gets in a ship that may fall off on its own? At 18:24 23 January 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote: In article , JJ Sinclair wrote: It's winter, I'm bored and I haven't started any good controversies (this year) so here goes: In the early 50's the USAF had a policy to give jump training to all aircrew personnel. They soon learned that they were getting twice the injuries in training that they were experiencing in real bail-outs. They decided to stop the actual jump training and just give PLF and kit deployment, etc training. So, JJ asks, In light of recent events that show its been reining Puchaz's, Do we really want to teach full blown spins? Isn't spin entry and immediate recovery, all we should be doing? JJ Sinclair With three times as many fatalities in training than flying (helicopters), one wonders the wisdom of practicing hundreds of autorotations during helicopter training as well. |
#9
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That's the one that would get me. Low and slow, sneaking over a fence
needing juuuuuuust liiiiiitle rudder to line up. I think an instructor can pound into your head NOT to do that, how to check yourself, and let you practice your stupidity. On my own as a test pilot, I will certainly get killed. "SNOOP" wrote in message om... Folks would like to plod through life thinking that they will recognize the good old nose up, stall, kick rudder, this must be the entry to a spin, I can recover from this. Who wouldn't. The one we like to pound into their memory is the nose level on the horizon, cross control (over shooting the final)feed in top aileron, and away you go into the nicest spin entry. Recognize it and recover. We don't need to let it wind up either. Again a good cirriculum lets you do this training with a high degree of safety, if the instructor is properly trained. |
#10
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