Auto Fuel STC

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:55:47 -0500, Barnyard BOb --
wrote:



Are you kidding yourself? How can your database grow past more
than a few hundred units with Chevy having most of the action
and Soob, etcetera taking the rest of the interested market?


Barnyard BOb --

BOb, you're the guy asking for the database, not me. I'm content to
note that the Ford V-6's now flying are continuing to do so without
encountering any major problems.

Of course the Fords, Chevy's and Subaru's are no threat to Lycoming.
They aren't intended to be. They are intended as an alternative to
outworldly expensive certified engine technology.

Personally, I'm having a lot of fun building the engine and assembling
the PSRU.

Corky Scott

As far as Lycomings go, they seem to have had too much trouble in recent
years building their existing designs (i.e. O-540 crankshaft AD) to be
considered a threat to whoever brings out the first commercially
successful diesels.

Del Rawlins-
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Got any evidence to supporting your 'pie in the sky'
Lycoming sour grapes conjecture and assertions?

How do you define... "commercially successful"?



Barnyard BOb --

On 19 Sep 2003 04:48 AM, Barnyard BOb -- posted the following:


As far as Lycomings go, they seem to have had too much trouble in
recent years building their existing designs (i.e. O-540 crankshaft
AD) to be considered a threat to whoever brings out the first
commercially successful diesels. Del Rawlins-
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Got any evidence to supporting your 'pie in the sky'
Lycoming sour grapes conjecture and assertions?

Nope, it's pure speculation and no less valid than your assertion that
new manufacturers will never amount to anything. Last I heard that was
still allowed here.

How do you define... "commercially successful"?

I would define it as you can call them up and order one and expect to
have it delivered within a reasonable time, and some undefined degree of
longevity for the company. Dynacam, BD Aircraft, Dreamwings, Moller and
their ilk need not apply. They wouldn't have to put lyc/cont out of
business, just support themselves on the sales of their own product. It
is a tall order under the current market conditions, but eventually
somebody will succeed.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Got any evidence to supporting your 'pie in the sky'
Lycoming sour grapes conjecture and assertions?

Nope, it's pure speculation and no less valid than your assertion that
new manufacturers will never amount to anything. Last I heard that was
still allowed here.

Sure, pure speculation certainly is allowed.
However, it appeared that you knew something.
My mistake.

How do you define... "commercially successful"?

I would define it as you can call them up and order one and expect to
have it delivered within a reasonable time, and some undefined degree of
longevity for the company. Dynacam, BD Aircraft, Dreamwings, Moller and
their ilk need not apply. They wouldn't have to put lyc/cont out of
business, just support themselves on the sales of their own product. It
is a tall order under the current market conditions, but eventually
somebody will succeed.

Del Rawlins-

Yes, someday somebody will succeed Lycoming.
Someday the United States will be succeeded
by another nation. Someday the world will end...
and this kind of pondering is silly and a waste of
time and energy.


Barnyard Bob --

Barnyard BOb wrote in message Someday the world will end...
and this kind of pondering is silly and a waste of time and energy.

So is sitting in front of our computers reading rah, but we continue to do
it every day.

Now then, back to my milling machine. I'm building my own turbo-diesel. For
my VTOL.

D. (The grass is always greener... until the fall when it dies!)

On 19 Sep 2003 06:35 PM, Capt. Doug posted the following:
D. (The grass is always greener... until the fall when it dies!)

Fine by me, then it doesn't need to be mowed anymore. 8^)

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

On 19 Sep 2003 05:31 PM, Barnyard BOb -- posted the following:

Sure, pure speculation certainly is allowed.
However, it appeared that you knew something.
My mistake.

The point is that your crystal ball is no more clear than mine. For all
I know you may be right, and we could be stuck with the same damn thing
for the NEXT 50 years. That is a depressing thought and I prefer to
hope for some improvement by the time I have to buy an engine. At my
current rate of building, the diesel folks have plenty of time.

Yes, someday somebody will succeed Lycoming.
Someday the United States will be succeeded
by another nation. Someday the world will end...
and this kind of pondering is silly and a waste of
time and energy.

True, but at least I am in good company.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Corky,

I am not sure it is worth it to try to make any point with BOb about any
auto conversion, but I can supply some information that others might
find interesting. Six years ago I could count over 400 homebuilts flying
with a Ford V-6. I could find more than 400 more under construction. I
don't know what the totals are now. I know of 300 professionally built
engines sold for installation in aircraft which have gone to builders
whom I don't know.

I can now report on 4 that have reached 1400+ hours and one that has
gone 2000 with no catastrophic failure. I can also report on several who
had problems that they could not figure out and who eventually pulled
the Ford to install a Lycoming. I can report one death related to engine
stoppage caused by a failed coil. I can report another death due to an
improperly supported accessory belt jumping the pulleys and yanking the
coil wires off. I can report on four that have been used exclusively for
glider towing each reaching 500+ hours with no failure. I can report one
engine failure due to a broken stock piston.(we all now use aftermarket
pistons) No injury.

The only short comings found with the engine was initial problems with
head gaskets. Solutions were found and now gasket failures are rare to
nonexistent. Early intake manifolds didn't flow well. Later ones work
OK. Speed parts are now becoming available with fancy intakes and
improved ratio roller rockers.

The engine has been found to weigh in at 400 lb to 450 lb FWF and
consistently produce 195 to 210 hp at 4800 RPM. Cog belt PSRUs produced
by Blanton, Brantly and Northwest Aero have shown dependability and
durability with belt life of 2000+ hours. THe engine can be built and
flown for $5000 to $7000. And you can buy a new crank when it's time to
rebuild for $450.

If you don't understand mechanical devises and have never overhauled an
engine, choose another engine project. If you like experimentation and
enjoy the fruits of your own physical labor, go with an auto conversion.

Corky Scott wrote:

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:23:15 -0500, Barnyard BOb --
wrote:

No one is accusing anyone of having their head in the sand,
but given the millions of hours Lycoming and Continental have
been flown and tracked over the years, any backyard data base
by a couple of conversion enthusiasts is insignificant and quite
suspect in the scheme of things. The FAA and the AD system
far exceeds anything you or Bruce can begin to track regarding
auto conversion world faux pas.

My sincere apologies if I implied that you accused anyone of having
their heads in the sand. That was intended as my reference to myself
and anyone else who would rather charge ahead with a project without
first ascertaining what, if anything, has gone before and where the
failure modes are. That just seemed logical to me.

Further...
The Ford engine is but one conversion and not a popular one.
Whatever its record is, or can be... it ain't good enough for the
majority of folks interested in converting auto engines today.
As far as I'm concerned, you Ford guys are riding a dead horse
and the Chevy boyz fall out of the sky with alarming alacrity.

It isn't dead to me. The parts are still available and the only
reason I'm using it is because so many are flying. The concept that
we're "riding a dead horse" is interesting. If that's the case then
what does that say about the Lycoming/Continentals?

I'd rather be using a Chevy, only because there are more aftermarket
parts available for it, but it's heavier than the Ford, unless you buy
an aluminum block. And then the cost is prohibitive and it may still
be heavier.

Feel all warm and fuzzy with your minuscule knowledge/data base,
if you must. Your Ford defense is a hoot.... and moot.

Barnyard BOb -- 51 years of flight.

The Database is small compared to Lycosaurs, no question about that.
But the database for them (Lycosaurs) was exceedingly small at one
time too, back when they were first introduced.

There isn't anything inherently wrong with the concept of using an
auto conversion. An engine is an engine as long is it's run within
it's design parameters. But you can't just bolt a prop to Mom's
salvaged grocery shuttle V-6 and expect it to work like an IO-360-L2A.

The devil is in the details. That's why the subject keeps being
discussed, that's why Bruce and others persist in printing
newsletters, a thankless task by the way. People need to know the
latest information.

Corky Scott

--
Bruce A. Frank, Editor "Ford 3.8/4.2L Engine and V-6 STOL
Homebuilt Aircraft Newsletter"
| Publishing interesting material|
| on all aspects of alternative |
| engines and homebuilt aircraft.|

Sure, pure speculation certainly is allowed.
However, it appeared that you knew something.
My mistake.

The point is that your crystal ball is no more clear than mine. For all
I know you may be right, and we could be stuck with the same damn thing
for the NEXT 50 years.

Your point was and still is patently obvious...
at least to me.


Yes, someday somebody will succeed Lycoming.
Someday the United States will be succeeded
by another nation. Someday the world will end...
and this kind of pondering is silly and a waste of
time and energy.

True, but at least I am in good company.

Del Rawlins

How can you be sure? g


Barnyard BOb --

"Bruce A. Frank" wrote:

I am not sure it is worth it to try to make any point with BOb about any
auto conversion, but...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


You have it all wrong, Bruce.
Your_points_ have ALWAYS been well understood.

The point is...
I simply disagree with the points as you and Corky present them.
Let it be known now and forever more that this is the way it is.


Barnyard BOb -- over 50 years of flight.