Etiquette in a Thermal

Okay, let's hear your views on what proper etiquette might be in a thermal. We all know the first man in decides the direction of the turn and we should all thermal at the same speed. The Glider Pilot Handbook seems somewhat unconcerned with the rules and etiquette and the internet information seems to be the domain of the hang gliders and para-gliders as to this subject. What say you my friends? (I think we have beaten the rudder waggle thing to death)

Walt

First glider sets the tone. I try to thermal just like I drive: Don't
cause anyone to change his direction or speed due to my actions. Simple as
that.


"Walt Connelly" wrote in message
...

Okay, let's hear your views on what proper etiquette might be in a
thermal. We all know the first man in decides the direction of the turn
and we should all thermal at the same speed. The Glider Pilot Handbook
seems somewhat unconcerned with the rules and etiquette and the internet
information seems to be the domain of the hang gliders and para-gliders
as to this subject. What say you my friends? (I think we have beaten
the rudder waggle thing to death)

Walt




--
Walt Connelly

On 7/28/2011 8:15 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
First glider sets the tone. I try to thermal just like I drive: Don't cause
anyone to change his direction or speed due to my actions. Simple as that.


"Walt Connelly" wrote in message
...

Okay, let's hear your views on what proper etiquette might be in a
thermal. We all know the first man in decides the direction of the turn
and we should all thermal at the same speed. The Glider Pilot Handbook
seems somewhat unconcerned with the rules and etiquette and the internet
information seems to be the domain of the hang gliders and para-gliders
as to this subject. What say you my friends? (I think we have beaten
the rudder waggle thing to death)

Walt




--
Walt Connelly


"What Dan M. said." Simple is good.

Play the mental games, & imagine scenarios. Say you're sharing a thermal at
the same altitude with one other, essentially identically-performing ship,
spaced 180-degrees across the thermal from him, and climbing essentially
identically with him. All is no-brainer until you decide he's not flying the
thermal bubbles in the more highly efficient way *you* would if by yourself,
which is to say - for the sake of discussion - he's not tightening his bank to
remain longer in the stronger upwellings, but instead flying like he's on
rails regardless of where the best lift is. Doesn't matter why he's doing it;
sooner or later you'll want to outclimb him, which usually means *you* have to
initiate a different course than he...whether to lure him into sink, or
out-turn him in a strong bubble, or whatever.

When you choose to 'go for it,' first thing is to not hit him (something the
Skyraider driver failed to get right), second thing is to implement Dan's
manner of thinking. If you want to implement a third - even *more*
conservative thought (as I strive to do) - it might well be to choose a
situation and flight path that completely rules out the possibility of the
other guy hitting you even IF he *tries* to while your belly is toward him
(meaning the time your fate is in his hands). Conceptually simple.

You can complicate things by considering the 'what ifs,' e.g.: what if you're
pretty cure the other guy is unaware of you (it happens...and not too
uncommonly in 'around the club field' settings!); what if the ships are of
'considerably different' thermaling characteristics; what if there are more
than 2 ships; what if there are only two but you manage to insert yourself at
some 'non-180-degree-apart' spacing; etc. Nothing changes conceptually,
insofar as avoiding/outclimbing the other guy(s) is concerned.

Regards,
Bob - KISS-ing is good/mindset matters - W.

Walt Connelly wrote:
Okay, let's hear your views on what proper etiquette might be in a
thermal. We all know the first man in decides the direction of the turn
and we should all thermal at the same speed. The Glider Pilot Handbook
seems somewhat unconcerned with the rules and etiquette and the internet
information seems to be the domain of the hang gliders and para-gliders
as to this subject. What say you my friends? (I think we have beaten
the rudder waggle thing to death)

Walt

I'd also like tips for entering a pre-established gaggle. Keeping other
gliders in sight is not too difficult if I am in the thermal and another
glider or two enters... but I have trouble entering with another glider and
ending up in the correct position (directly across from the other glider).
I have been practicing be entering very low as not to disrupt the gaggle,
but I find it hard to judge the entry point and bank to get into the
gaggle. I have been watching other pilots, and it seems they come in fast,
open brakes anf get behind a thermalling glider matching bank angle, and
then continue with brakes to slow down and sort of slip backwards into
safer position... maybe this is not actually what is going on... but thats
how it looks.

any advice appreciated.

The FAA version of the Glider Flying Handbook is seriously flawed with
numerous errors affecting flight safety. Since it is in the public
domain, and with the help of other glider pilots, I published a
corrected version in 2010 with more than 1,400 editorial corrections/
changes. It is available as "The Glider Flying Handbook" from many
safety-minded gliderports and our web site: www.eglider.org

Tom Knauff


On Jul 28, 9:06*am, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
Okay, let's hear your views on what proper etiquette might be in a
thermal. *We all know the first man in decides the direction of the turn
and we should all thermal at the same speed. *The Glider Pilot Handbook
seems somewhat unconcerned with the rules and etiquette and the internet
information seems to be the domain of the hang gliders and para-gliders
as to this subject. *What say you my friends? *(I think we have beaten
the rudder waggle thing to death)

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

On Jul 28, 9:22*pm, Tom Stock wrote:


I'd also like tips for entering a pre-established gaggle. * *Keeping other
gliders in sight is not too difficult if I am in the thermal and another
glider or two enters... but I have trouble entering with another glider and
ending up in the correct position (directly across from the other glider)..
I have been practicing be entering very low as not to disrupt the gaggle,
but I find it hard to judge the entry point and bank to get into the
gaggle. *I have been watching other pilots, and it seems they come in fast,
open brakes anf get behind a thermalling glider matching bank angle, and
then continue with brakes to slow down and sort of slip backwards into
safer position... maybe this is not actually what is going on... but thats
how it looks.

any advice appreciated.

I have never used air brakes when entering a thermal and if I had to
I'd think I had really botched the entry. How to enter depends on the
situation but there is one, in my opinion, hard rule. You never join
in away that causes any other glider established in the thermal to
take evasive active or even to think they might need to take evasive
action.

When joining one glider at about the same altitude I do several things
- a) I'm looking for the other gliders in the thermal that I have not
seen yet; b) I'm looking around me for gliders joining with me that I
don't know about yet; and c) when I think I have the complete picture
I'm using pitch changes as required to change altitude, speed,
relative position, and time of the join-up so I arrive in the place I
want to be. Keep repeating a), b), c) remembering that joining safely
is far more important than gaining a second.

The dynamics of joining a larger group are much the same. Joining
wide and then working in slowly is probably good advice for the
inexperienced.

When in a thermal keep looking around for gliders joining, gliders
leaving, and the ones behind and above you that have you in their
blind spot. Use all the field of view your glider allows. I don't
fly gliders that don't allow me to look back and see the tips of the
tailplane and I scan back there in a crowded thermal. Also scan above
you so you don't climb into another gliders blind spot. If you lose
visual contact with a glider a quick radio call to ask if he sees you
may be appropriate. Of course you can't scan effectively in a thermal
if you wear a large brimmed hat or a cap with a peak. If you must
wear one of those please take it off while thermalling.

When leaving exit smoothly when your circle becomes tangential to the
desired course line. Don't be one of those guys that's circling left,
waits until 90 deg past the desired course line then cranks hard
right, totally oblivious to gliders outside and behind.

As to working the thermal it all depends who you are with. Two or
three gliders in a thermal at the same altitude can work very
effectively together to maximize climb rate if they are comfortable
with each others style. The same three gliders won't climb as well if
the 2 joining slavishly do exactly what the first was doing when they
joined unless the first has a very well defined core and has it
centered perfectly.

And please if you join a glider cranked up at 45 deg, obviously in a
good core, please don't fly an intersecting 25 deg banked circle and
knock him out of his thermal.

Andy (GY)

OK, Ok... Disregard what I said originally about not affecting anyone
else's path when entering a thermal. Here's what I *really* do:

1. Try to enter at the bottom of the gaggle. It's best to have at least
135 KIAS.
2. Smoothly execute a 6 g pull-up to 83 degrees pitch.
3. As the airspeed drops through 31 KIAS, smoothly apply full left rudder
to get the nose swinging down towards the horizon (I prefer left hammer
heads, you may prefer to go to the right).
4. Skillfully recover from the ensuing spin in 3/4 turn or less.
5. Slide gracefully into position at the bottom of the thermal.

Oh, did I mention that, if you're dumping water as you go over the top, the
other gliders will appreciate getting the bugs washed off their wings?

:-)

Dan


"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Jul 28, 9:22 pm, Tom Stock wrote:


I'd also like tips for entering a pre-established gaggle. Keeping other
gliders in sight is not too difficult if I am in the thermal and another
glider or two enters... but I have trouble entering with another glider
and
ending up in the correct position (directly across from the other glider).
I have been practicing be entering very low as not to disrupt the gaggle,
but I find it hard to judge the entry point and bank to get into the
gaggle. I have been watching other pilots, and it seems they come in fast,
open brakes anf get behind a thermalling glider matching bank angle, and
then continue with brakes to slow down and sort of slip backwards into
safer position... maybe this is not actually what is going on... but thats
how it looks.

any advice appreciated.

I have never used air brakes when entering a thermal and if I had to
I'd think I had really botched the entry. How to enter depends on the
situation but there is one, in my opinion, hard rule. You never join
in away that causes any other glider established in the thermal to
take evasive active or even to think they might need to take evasive
action.

When joining one glider at about the same altitude I do several things
- a) I'm looking for the other gliders in the thermal that I have not
seen yet; b) I'm looking around me for gliders joining with me that I
don't know about yet; and c) when I think I have the complete picture
I'm using pitch changes as required to change altitude, speed,
relative position, and time of the join-up so I arrive in the place I
want to be. Keep repeating a), b), c) remembering that joining safely
is far more important than gaining a second.

The dynamics of joining a larger group are much the same. Joining
wide and then working in slowly is probably good advice for the
inexperienced.

When in a thermal keep looking around for gliders joining, gliders
leaving, and the ones behind and above you that have you in their
blind spot. Use all the field of view your glider allows. I don't
fly gliders that don't allow me to look back and see the tips of the
tailplane and I scan back there in a crowded thermal. Also scan above
you so you don't climb into another gliders blind spot. If you lose
visual contact with a glider a quick radio call to ask if he sees you
may be appropriate. Of course you can't scan effectively in a thermal
if you wear a large brimmed hat or a cap with a peak. If you must
wear one of those please take it off while thermalling.

When leaving exit smoothly when your circle becomes tangential to the
desired course line. Don't be one of those guys that's circling left,
waits until 90 deg past the desired course line then cranks hard
right, totally oblivious to gliders outside and behind.

As to working the thermal it all depends who you are with. Two or
three gliders in a thermal at the same altitude can work very
effectively together to maximize climb rate if they are comfortable
with each others style. The same three gliders won't climb as well if
the 2 joining slavishly do exactly what the first was doing when they
joined unless the first has a very well defined core and has it
centered perfectly.

And please if you join a glider cranked up at 45 deg, obviously in a
good core, please don't fly an intersecting 25 deg banked circle and
knock him out of his thermal.

Andy (GY)

On Jul 28, 11:22*pm, Tom Stock wrote:
Walt Connelly wrote:
Okay, let's hear your views on what proper etiquette might be in a
thermal. *We all know the first man in decides the direction of the turn
and we should all thermal at the same speed. *The Glider Pilot Handbook
seems somewhat unconcerned with the rules and etiquette and the internet
information seems to be the domain of the hang gliders and para-gliders
as to this subject. *What say you my friends? *(I think we have beaten
the rudder waggle thing to death)

Walt

I'd also like tips for entering a pre-established gaggle. * *Keeping other
gliders in sight is not too difficult if I am in the thermal and another
glider or two enters... but I have trouble entering with another glider and
ending up in the correct position (directly across from the other glider)..
I have been practicing be entering very low as not to disrupt the gaggle,
but I find it hard to judge the entry point and bank to get into the
gaggle. *I have been watching other pilots, and it seems they come in fast,
open brakes anf get behind a thermalling glider matching bank angle, and
then continue with brakes to slow down and sort of slip backwards into
safer position... maybe this is not actually what is going on... but thats
how it looks.

any advice appreciated.

First look hard to figure out which way the gaggle is turning. It's
easy to get this wrong!

Then, aim well outside the circle, at least one radius outside. It's
hard to end up just on a tangent, and aiming to do so will usually
lead to blasting through the middle of the circle, which will lead to
many annoyed radio calls. If you're lucky. Aiming outside is also good
insurance against an errant glider that you didn't see.

Slow down before you get to the gaggle. Don't hit the gaggle and pull
hard, as that will send you straight up. Anyway, there is often a lot
of rising air around the core and you might find a better core 2-3
diameters away from the gaggle. So get it down to 60-70 long before
you get near the gaggle.

Brakes? This seems like a looney idea. Much better to slow down by
gaining altitude, but do it far from the gaggle so you're not pulling
up in to someone.

While approaching the gaggle, don't just focus on the three gliders at
your altitude. Look above and below -- there are often gliders marking
other better cores. Look for gliders above and below you converging on
the gaggle. Look to the side -- try to find the other gliders who are
converging on the gaggle. Your job is to find the gliders you don't
see, not stare at the ones you do see!

Other gliders converging on the gaggle are usually staring straight at
the gaggle, not looking for you. Gliders will often whizz right past
the gaggle because they don't even see it's there. Most pilots in the
gaggle will only lookto the inside of their turn about 20 or 30
degrees, and almost never up or out. Thinking about "where is it
likely that they can see, and where are they likely to be looking and
not looking" is useful.

Start turning well outside the gaggle, and, yes, well outside the
lift. Then slowly edge your way in to the gaggle where there is a free
spot. Radio calls are fine. As above, many gliders in the gaggle will
not be looking outside for you.

It often happens that your vario will not show the lift for the first
half turn. Go with the gaggle for the first turn -- often this is just
vario lag, and they really do have it centered. Also, trying to
recenter the gaggle on your first turn is a bit presumptuous. Let them
see you're there before leading them off to better lift.

When evaluating the gaggle look for bank angle, climb rate, and
consistency of their turns. Are they well centered in a good core, or
are they waffling around in joint fear? Often, you want to use the
gaggle as a backup option, and explore other parts of the cloud first
to see if you can find a better core. I often head upwind of the
gaggle, trying to find a better core, then drift down to the gaggle
and only use it if I haven't found something better.

Chasing a gaggle from below is frustrating. Often you will be low, see
a gaggle ahead and 1000' or more above, head right below it... and
find nothing. Welcome to soaring.

In the gaggle, you will find many pilots using way too little bank
angle. Getting by them is contentious. No matter what they say, many
pilots will wait for a 20 degree boater to wander off into the sink,
then tighten up and go inside him. Though the tight glider's belly is
to the slow glider, the slow glider will usually have his eyes glued
to the inside of the turn. This is controversial, as most pilots say
"don't do it." And many pilots do it. If you're boating around in a 20
degree bank angle and the thermal seems choppy, expect others to cut
inside you. If you choose to cut in, make it really decisive to
establish the maximum separation between you and the outside glider. A
radio call wouldn't hurt either.

Of course you're not even thinking of looking at your vario. The other
gliders are much better indicators of where the lift is good or bad.

When you figure out which side is better, you can gently lead the
gaggle over to it in small steps. Move your circle half a radius to
the good lift; they'll see you doing better and follow. Then keep
going. Moving a whole diameter is a very bad idea as then you have
head on traffic where the two circles intersect.

While in the gaggle, look occasionally up and out. Keep track of all
the gliders around you by looking back.

Exiting the gaggle is hard too. Don't just suddenly roll out! Look
carefully out and over your shoulder. Then roll out slowly but
deliberately so that someone behind you knows what you're doing. Don't
even think of this Moffat bash-through-the-core stuff. Nobody does
that anymore anyway, since netto varios showed us that thermals are
surrounded by lift not cores of sink.

Flying directly above or below another glider is a very bad idea
without hundreds of feet separation. People pull up or dive down, or
hit lift and sink. The guy above cannot see anything, and the guy
below usually isn't looking up.

Gaggle etiquette also applies in cruise. The gaggle will typically
cruise together to the next thermal. When cruising with a gaggle, you
cannot do sharp pull ups or push overs. You can't see who is there,
and they can't see you. If you want to change course or go to a cloud
or bird the others don't see, do it gently.

New pilots to contests might say "I just won't fly gaggles," but
that's not realistic. On weak days, you have to fly the gaggles to
stay up. And anytime you turn, others will join you. It's not that
bad, and eventually even becomes an enjoyable part of contest soaring.
But do follow the rules of the road.


John Cochrane
BB (now "Bad Back" but getting better!)

On Thursday, July 28, 2011 9:22:46 PM UTC-7, tstock wrote:
open brakes anf get behind a thermalling glider matching bank angle, and
then continue with brakes to slow down and sort of slip backwards into
safer position... maybe this is not actually what is going on... but thats
how it looks.

Never seen anyone waste energy by using brakes.

If I expect to arrive at the same altitude as the other glider, then I aim to be alongside and outside the other glider so I end up following him in in the thermal. Think of a 2 lane roundabout and the other guy's using the inner lane. Pull in so you're outside his turn and a bit behind, if he decides to leave, turn into his tail to take his spot, or as your energy bleeds off, slide in behind him.

If coming in fast, then overtake on the outside as you climb around and settle in on the opposite side and above. Always keep the other glider(s) in sight.

I consider thermalling to be a 50/50 proposition. I do half the avoidance, the other pilot does the other half (unless he doesn't, and I'm prepared for that as well).

A circling glider can generally be expected to follow the current circular path, go tighter, or looser, perhaps rolling wings level. So avoid that area. If you're worried about him turning into you, then give him a call "5Z, I'm on your outside", and he will respond "5Z...". No need to identify yourself. If he doesn't respond, then don't get close.

When circling close to another glider, I like to wave, and expect a wave back. Tells me the guy's got his head out of the cockpit. Do this at the first opportunity, then once a minute or two. If he doesn't wave back, he's not paying attention to you.

-Tom

Forty Five views and not one comment on etiquette in a thermal. Apparently this subject does not evoke the emotions of the waggle of ones tail.

Walt