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CIA Vietnam war controlled USAF aircraft missions



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 28th 04, 06:25 PM
Mike Marron
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Aerophotos wrote:

I have on good source from a knowledgeable aviation enthusiast, info
that in the late stages of the Vietnam war for some operations the CIA
controlled a limited amount of USAF assets, eg F-4 Phantoms and F-111s
Adavarks for attacks in Laos and Cambodia.


Dad said he flew the A-1E in cloak and dagger sorties into Laos
coordinated by the CIA, Air America, SEALS, Green Beanies etc.
Those sorties weren't logged and he has significantly more combat
hours than what's shown in his USAF pilot records.





  #12  
Old February 28th 04, 06:34 PM
Tarver Engineering
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"Mike Marron" wrote in message
news
Aerophotos wrote:


I have on good source from a knowledgeable aviation enthusiast, info
that in the late stages of the Vietnam war for some operations the CIA
controlled a limited amount of USAF assets, eg F-4 Phantoms and F-111s
Adavarks for attacks in Laos and Cambodia.


Dad said he flew the A-1E in cloak and dagger sorties into Laos
coordinated by the CIA, Air America, SEALS, Green Beanies etc.
Those sorties weren't logged and he has significantly more combat
hours than what's shown in his USAF pilot records.


That is not uncommon for those times. What the original poster is missing
is that CIA was paired with personal from the militay.


  #13  
Old February 29th 04, 07:05 AM
George Ruch
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Aerophotos wrote:

I have on good source from a knowledgeable aviation enthusiast, info
that in the late stages of the Vietnam war for some operations the CIA
controlled a limited amount of USAF assets, eg F-4 Phantoms and F-111s
Adavarks for attacks in Laos and Cambodia.

These aircrafts were painted overall black for night operations and
operated by only a pilot, no wso, due to CIA mission rules.


1. No WSO: Physically impossible in an F-111 (any model), and even more so
in an F-4. Google "F-111" and check the cockpit layout.

2. I was stationed at Takhli 10/72 to 4/73. While I was there, there were
_NO_ overall black F-111s there at the time. Most operations were night
missions, so the paint scheme would have been appropriate for that use
(jungle green mix, going to black on the bottom, IIRC). We had painted our
ALQ-87 jammer pods black so they wouldn't wouldn't stand out.

The overall grey/black paint scheme came in much later.

3. I doubt the CIA had 'control' of any military aircraft. They did have
their own resources ('Air America', mainly based in northern Thailand), but
not for the kind of missions you're describing. They may have requested
missions through the NCA, but that would require documentary proof.

The aircraft would depart their bases early in morning/late evenings and
no radio chatter was observed.


Radio silence would be common for operational security. A squadron
commander at the time described the silence as 'deafening' when Korat TACAN
finally faded out.

What was so sensitive in Laos and Cambodia that would require them there?


Political fallout. Laos and Cambodia were officially neutral at the time,
but tolerated the flow of men and materials through their countries via the
Ho Chi Mihn Trail.

Let's use Occam's Razor here. The enemy is using the Ho Chi Mihn trail to
resupply their forces, the Nixon administration wants to get out while
giving the South Vietnamese a fighting chance, so they order missions into
neutral territory to disrupt that resupply.

George

/------------------------------------------------------------\
| George Ruch |
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?" |
\------------------------------------------------------------/
  #14  
Old February 29th 04, 07:12 AM
George Ruch
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Aerophotos wrote:

Well the person who told me is adamant the CIA used the F-111 in the
role.


Right... And how many pints did you have to buy him to get that so-called
'information'?

A-7D is the other i think... regardless he says to me F-111 were used ..
strike or recon who knows..?


Strike, if anything. There has never been a recon version of the F-111 in
the USAF inventory. The only thing _remotely_ close to that would be the
KB-18 strike camera on the non-SAC versions.

George

/------------------------------------------------------------\
| George Ruch |
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?" |
\------------------------------------------------------------/
  #15  
Old February 29th 04, 11:49 AM
Smartace11
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1. No WSO: Physically impossible in an F-111 (any model), and even more so
in an F-4. Google "F-111" and check the cockpit layout.


There was nothing in the F-4 that would prevent it from being flown without
someone in the rear cockpit. The only necessary system there is the Inertial
Nav and that can be ser up on the ground with power connected. Radar wold be
inop and no contro lover jammers but not needed in an area like Laos.
  #16  
Old February 29th 04, 03:18 PM
RobbelothE
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Subject: CIA Vietnam war controlled USAF aircraft missions
From: George Ruch
Date: 2/29/2004 12:05 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Aerophotos wrote:

I have on good source from a knowledgeable aviation enthusiast, info
that in the late stages of the Vietnam war for some operations the CIA
controlled a limited amount of USAF assets, eg F-4 Phantoms and F-111s
Adavarks for attacks in Laos and Cambodia.


/\/\ Snip /\/\

What was so sensitive in Laos and Cambodia that would require them there?


Political fallout. Laos and Cambodia were officially neutral at the time,
but tolerated the flow of men and materials through their countries via the
Ho Chi Mihn Trail.

Let's use Occam's Razor here. The enemy is using the Ho Chi Mihn trail to
resupply their forces, the Nixon administration wants to get out while
giving the South Vietnamese a fighting chance, so they order missions into
neutral territory to disrupt that resupply.

George


I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of 69) and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original poster claims
ever took place.

There were some black-painted aircraft though. O-2 Forward Air Controllers
(FAC) who worked at night directing airstrikes, but not many of them. For the
most part, the air war went into "standby" mode at night because our abilities
to operate in the dark were limited to gunships, B-57s and A-26s which operated
over the Trail. The gunships and the A-26s had black lower surfaces.

The only other black aircraft I know of was an H-3 helicopter that inserted
ground teams into Laos (I knew/know the pilot).


Ed

"There are no easy answers, but there are simple answers.
We must have the courage to do what we know is morally
right." --Ronald Reagan



(Delete text after dot com for e-mail reply.)
  #18  
Old March 1st 04, 08:07 PM
George Ruch
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(RobbelothE) wrote:

Subject: CIA Vietnam war controlled USAF aircraft missions
From: George Ruch

Date: 2/29/2004 12:05 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Aerophotos wrote:

I have on good source from a knowledgeable aviation enthusiast, info
that in the late stages of the Vietnam war for some operations the CIA
controlled a limited amount of USAF assets, eg F-4 Phantoms and F-111s
Adavarks for attacks in Laos and Cambodia.


/\/\ Snip /\/\

What was so sensitive in Laos and Cambodia that would require them there?


Political fallout. Laos and Cambodia were officially neutral at the time,
but tolerated the flow of men and materials through their countries via the
Ho Chi Mihn Trail.

Let's use Occam's Razor here.


[snip]

I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of 69) and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original poster claims
ever took place.


I expected as much.

There were some black-painted aircraft though. O-2 Forward Air Controllers
(FAC) who worked at night directing airstrikes, but not many of them.


[snip]

And my memory may have been playing tricks on me. Hell, it's been 30+
years... I don't know if I'm mixing up memories with the later LO gray SAC
FB-111s, but some of the A/C at Takhli may have gone to a gray/black night
low observable paint scheme.

Thanks for the info, Ed.

/------------------------------------------------------------\
| George Ruch |
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?" |
\------------------------------------------------------------/
  #19  
Old March 1st 04, 10:34 PM
Smartace11
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I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of 69) and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original poster

claims
ever took place.


I expected as much.


The poster said later stages of the war. His information source was there in
1972. Different war under Nixon, maybe!
  #20  
Old March 2nd 04, 01:40 AM
Kevin Brooks
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"Smartace11" wrote in message
...
I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of 69)

and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original poster

claims
ever took place.


I expected as much.


The poster said later stages of the war. His information source was there

in
1972. Different war under Nixon, maybe!


The original poster (Aerophotos, AKA Jolly Green Giant) has demonstrated
little credibility; this latest flight of fantasy he has engaged in is just
another example of that.

Brooks


 




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