Flarm in the US

On Aug 10, 12:21*am, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 8/9/2010 11:22 AM, Mike Schumann wrote:

Maybe the best solution is for the SSA to buy 50 basic FLARM boxes and
rent them out to contests to use in the short term and wait for the
FAA and the market to sort things out over the next 20 years.

I think this might be a good solution for contests for the next couple
of years. Flarm (the company) might be willing to sell or lease them
cheaply to SSA as a marketing ploy. Someone has to ask them about the
cost, then the contest committee needs to poll the pilots to determine
the level of support for the idea. This could be started now to have
ready in time for at least the National contests, and maybe several of
the big Regionals.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

This topic is on the list for the 2010 pilot poll.
UH
RC Chair

On 8/10/2010 12:27 AM, JS wrote:
When we can actually fly with an ADS-B system that is fully
functional, it'll be interesting to see how brilliantly it works in
the real world and how their algorithms are for dealing with formation
flying: IE glider on tow, or ten gliders in one thermal, without being
the boy who cried wolf.
Jim

Once again, ADS-B does not incorporate any collision avoidance logic.
It just identifies targets. The external display device that is
attached to the ADS-B receiver is responsible for any alerts.

Since this part of the system is not regulated by the FAA for VFR
applications, we will hopefully see some innovative solutions to this
challenge from people like See-You, Clear Nav, etc....

--
Mike Schumann

On Aug 10, 6:21*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:
Since this part of the system is not regulated by the FAA for VFR
applications, we will hopefully see some innovative solutions to this
challenge from people like See-You, Clear Nav, etc....

Perhaps we can lobby AOPA to push a FLARM solution that integrates
with ADS-B as the solution for "the rest of us". Now would be a
perfect time considering the tragic loss of one of their staff.

One of the "problems" with ADS-B has been the cost and the lack of
clear benefits for the VFR, low & slow community, and this looks to be
the perfect storm to get something going.

-Tom

On Aug 10, 12:21*am, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 8/9/2010 11:22 AM, Mike Schumann wrote:

Maybe the best solution is for the SSA to buy 50 basic FLARM boxes and
rent them out to contests to use in the short term and wait for the
FAA and the market to sort things out over the next 20 years.

I think this might be a good solution for contests for the next couple
of years. Flarm (the company) might be willing to sell or lease them
cheaply to SSA as a marketing ploy. Someone has to ask them about the
cost, then the contest committee needs to poll the pilots to determine
the level of support for the idea. This could be started now to have
ready in time for at least the National contests, and maybe several of
the big Regionals.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

There is something to be said for this. The peak number of planes
flying contests at one time this year (or at least registered) was on
May 15th,
when there were 37 at R9 South and 47 at R2 Mifflin. If this unit is
like
other Flarms it also works as an IGC logger (I don't see it on the
web
description however). If each unit rented out 20 times over a 5 year
span at $100 plus shipping (if it survived that long!) it would pay
for itself.

On the other hand we didn't do anything like that when we introduced
igc recorders to contest flying, even though there was a steep price
to pay for them, and even though there was a big improvement in
task calling and flight scoring available from using them. Those 50
units would represent an $80K outlay, plus the administrative cost
of keeping track of them, getting them fixed when they break, etc.

-- Matt

On Aug 10, 8:37*am, wrote:
On Aug 10, 12:21*am, Eric Greenwell wrote:



On 8/9/2010 11:22 AM, Mike Schumann wrote:

Maybe the best solution is for the SSA to buy 50 basic FLARM boxes and
rent them out to contests to use in the short term and wait for the
FAA and the market to sort things out over the next 20 years.

I think this might be a good solution for contests for the next couple
of years. Flarm (the company) might be willing to sell or lease them
cheaply to SSA as a marketing ploy. Someone has to ask them about the
cost, then the contest committee needs to poll the pilots to determine
the level of support for the idea. This could be started now to have
ready in time for at least the National contests, and maybe several of
the big Regionals.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

This topic is on the list for the 2010 pilot poll.
UH
RC Chair

I think we can safely say that a collision avoidance device that takes
up no space, uses no power, gives only good information and costs no
money would be embraced by (almost) all.

Speaking for myself, I have an issue with family. They trust me to
stay out of rocks and trees, and make sure the glider is put together
right. They *worry* about midairs. I do to. This is the hazard that
by definition catches you unaware. So I am motivated.

Several times I have reviewed flight logs from contest legs where I
flew "all alone" to discover, after the fact, that there were several
other ships within visual range that I never saw. I've used that
discovery to work hard on my scan discipline and I believe I have
improved, but I *know* I'm not getting all the traffic. So I know
that eyeballs aren't enough.

What's needed is more credible evaluation & tire kicking &
understanding of where the faults are, and how it works (or not) with
GA. Thank you to those who have posted their experiences here -- this
is very helpful. The benefit/cost ratio appears to be pleasingly
high.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Aug 10, 8:37*am, wrote:
On Aug 10, 12:21*am, Eric Greenwell wrote:



On 8/9/2010 11:22 AM, Mike Schumann wrote:

Maybe the best solution is for the SSA to buy 50 basic FLARM boxes and
rent them out to contests to use in the short term and wait for the
FAA and the market to sort things out over the next 20 years.

I think this might be a good solution for contests for the next couple
of years. Flarm (the company) might be willing to sell or lease them
cheaply to SSA as a marketing ploy. Someone has to ask them about the
cost, then the contest committee needs to poll the pilots to determine
the level of support for the idea. This could be started now to have
ready in time for at least the National contests, and maybe several of
the big Regionals.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

This topic is on the list for the 2010 pilot poll.
UH
RC Chair

I think we can safely say that a collision avoidance device that takes
up no space, uses no power, gives only good information and costs no
money would be embraced by (almost) all. So the question of whether
to adopt any specific technology is largely question of benefits vs.
cost.

Speaking for myself, I have an issue with family. They trust me to
stay out of rocks and trees, and make sure the glider is put together
right. They *worry* about midairs. I do, too. This is the hazard
that
by definition catches you unaware. So I am motivated.

Several times I have reviewed flight logs from contest legs where I
flew "all alone" to discover, after the fact, that there were several
other ships within visual range that I never saw. I've used that
discovery to work hard on my scan discipline and I believe I have
improved, but I *know* I'm not getting all the traffic. So I know
that eyeballs aren't enough.

What's needed is more credible evaluation & tire kicking &
understanding of where the faults are, and how it works (or not) with
GA. Thank you to those who have posted their experiences here -- this
is very helpful. The benefit/cost ratio appears to be pleasingly
high.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Aug 10, 5:37*am, wrote:
On Aug 10, 12:21*am, Eric Greenwell wrote:





On 8/9/2010 11:22 AM, Mike Schumann wrote:

Maybe the best solution is for the SSA to buy 50 basic FLARM boxes and
rent them out to contests to use in the short term and wait for the
FAA and the market to sort things out over the next 20 years.

I think this might be a good solution for contests for the next couple
of years. Flarm (the company) might be willing to sell or lease them
cheaply to SSA as a marketing ploy. Someone has to ask them about the
cost, then the contest committee needs to poll the pilots to determine
the level of support for the idea. This could be started now to have
ready in time for at least the National contests, and maybe several of
the big Regionals.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

This topic is on the list for the 2010 pilot poll.
UH
RC Chair

I did a back of the envelope on the rental idea a couple of weeks ago.
Depending on how many non-overlapping contests you can serve, the
price you buy the PowerFlarms at and whether you sell/replace the
units that have been in service a few years, it seems you could rent
them out at $40-70 per contest at breakeven. This year at least there
weren't many schedule conflicts on the big contests, but some are back-
to-back, so you'd need an efficient system for management and
logistics. I doubt the Flarm guys would want to donate or lease 50
units, but they might be willing to give favorable pricing to help get
the US market going and really show the value in the toughest
environment - contests.

I'm in favor of doing something. I believe the statistics show that
the biggest midair threat is glider-glider at contests and covering
contests would seed the market among many of the pilot who fly the
most.

9B

On Aug 10, 7:32*am, 5Z wrote:
On Aug 10, 6:21*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:

Since this part of the system is not regulated by the FAA for VFR
applications, we will hopefully see some innovative solutions to this
challenge from people like See-You, Clear Nav, etc....

Perhaps we can lobby AOPA to push a FLARM solution that integrates
with ADS-B as the solution for "the rest of us". *Now would be a
perfect time considering the tragic loss of one of their staff.

One of the "problems" with ADS-B has been the cost and the lack of
clear benefits for the VFR, low & slow community, and this looks to be
the perfect storm to get something going.

-Tom

If you want to engage AOPA in this, visit the AOPA web site and see
the pilot meetings under Engage in AOPA. AOPA members in various
areas should have had an e-mail notification of these meetings and can
submit questions in advance. Of course, the meeting agendas are going
to be pretty tightly controlled as they are short and themed, but
Craig Fuller will be there with a congressman or senator. The
unfortunate irony is that Chris O'Callaghan was one of the pilots
involved in the current east coast Mitre ADS-B tests.

Frank Whiteley

"Darryl Ramm" wrote in message
...
snip

I had a DG-303 and I suspect the very best place for a Flarm like
device is on top of the glareshield, for both visibility and antenna
location and I'd be trying to move your flight recorder elsewhere if
you need the space.
snip

Writing from the UK.

I have a Swiss Flarm, the original type, which mounts on top of my panel.
However I've realised it's not the best choice for my particular glider as
if I ever have to jump, the cover over the panel goes with the canopy. It
would have been much easier to do a safe installation (e.g. one with greatly
reduced risk of stopping the canopy ejecting) with a Red Box Flarm, which is
headless and can be fitted somewhere behind the panel or (I suspect) even
secured to the inside of the fus with Velcro.

However the Flarm itself works well. Mine is an IGC logger as well (and the
Red Box is available in an IGC version). I haven't flown a huge amount
since I got it, but it seems to have worked well on it's few XC outings.
The one thing that is always in my mind when I get an alert and I *think* I
see the threat is if it really is the thread. I treat the alarm as a 'lot
out even more' warning rather than a 'look at the display' warning.

On Aug 10, 8:08*am, Andy wrote:
On Aug 10, 5:37*am, wrote:





On Aug 10, 12:21*am, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 8/9/2010 11:22 AM, Mike Schumann wrote:

Maybe the best solution is for the SSA to buy 50 basic FLARM boxes and
rent them out to contests to use in the short term and wait for the
FAA and the market to sort things out over the next 20 years.

I think this might be a good solution for contests for the next couple
of years. Flarm (the company) might be willing to sell or lease them
cheaply to SSA as a marketing ploy. Someone has to ask them about the
cost, then the contest committee needs to poll the pilots to determine
the level of support for the idea. This could be started now to have
ready in time for at least the National contests, and maybe several of
the big Regionals.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

This topic is on the list for the 2010 pilot poll.
UH
RC Chair

I did a back of the envelope on the rental idea a couple of weeks ago.
Depending on how many non-overlapping contests you can serve, the
price you buy the PowerFlarms at and whether you sell/replace the
units that have been in service a few years, it seems you could rent
them out at $40-70 per contest at breakeven. This year at least there
weren't many schedule conflicts on the big contests, but some are back-
to-back, so you'd need an efficient system for management and
logistics. I doubt the Flarm guys would want to donate or lease 50
units, but they might be willing to give favorable pricing to help get
the US market going and really show the value in the toughest
environment - contests.

I'm in favor of doing something. I believe the statistics show that
the biggest midair threat is glider-glider at contests and covering
contests would seed the market among many of the pilot who fly the
most.

9B

I don't want to see the "first" batch of Flarms going to just contest
pilots. Contest pilots are not the only ones to run in to each other.
If you want to see a lawsuit, go ahead and prioritize who get's them.
There are way more "just for fun" flights in the US than contest
flights.................I value my life and the guys I fly with as
much as the contest guys value their lives and the guys they fly with.

As far as flying "the most", I'd like to see the statistics showing
contest hours and non-contest hours flown.

Regards,
Brad