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#51
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Or chicken here in the US;^)
According to last Sunday's paper, a lot of acreage near here (Greeley, Colorado) is going into mustard seed for bio-diesel production. Frank Whiteley "tango4" wrote in message ... Have you ever smelt a diesel running on used vegetable oil? It's just like standing in the local Fish and Chip shop! Ian "Bill Daniels" wrote in message ... "Craig Freeman" wrote in message om... (Ulrich Neumann) wrote in message om... Bruce and Bill, these were very insightful contribution to this subject. I think that nobody in his right mind would set out to purposely build an underpowered winch. I think you cannot have too much power, as long as it is controlable. The ECU's of modern big rig diesels would allow you to have a preset power setting for each glider with an available override. True today's electronic can be programed to various power outputs. However it is not possible to do this in a way that would be useful in the winch application. At least not through the engines computer. To reprogram the engine you first have to be trained and then have access to the OEM codes. Only dealers and certified shops get these codes and then it varies engine by engine as to specific results. Also to time consuming and not able to make small enough adjustments to be useful in winch launching. However an external system such as Bill has proposed could tell the engine "give me more or give me less". Until a system such as this is built and proven there is no substitute for the human bean, er brain. I have it on "pretty good" authority that these ECU's are simple to hack or reverse engineer. Several gray market operations have already done it and offer replacement ECU's with extensive user controls accessible through a serial port from a laptop running special software. The market demand seems to be coming from the participants in tractor pull competitions. I would tend to think that the maximum power setting of the ECU would be best used as a safety limit set to , say, 10% over the expected power demand. With 3000 + foot pounds of torque available on these large diesels, a winch driver sneeze at just the wrong time might produce interesting results. If we go to a "full authority" autolaunch system, having a separate power limiting safety net seems like a good idea. You know, there is another "feel good" thing about diesels. There is a rapidly expanding supply of renewable "biodiesel" fuel whose source is vegetable oils produced domestically. Since CO2 went into growing the crop that produced the oil, releasing it back into the atmosphere results in no net increase in atmospheric CO2. With biodiesel fuel, a diesel runs better, lasts longer and sure smells better. It's a little more expensive than petroleum based diesel but at .4 liters of fuel per launch, you aren't going to use much of it. Bill Daniels |
#52
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Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...
Marcel Duenner wrote: So? Our setup: 222kW (300hp) turbocharged diesel, 6 drums, 1000m of steel cable. This winch has handled everything including a 4DM. Even a slight tailwind and a ASH25 are no real problem. Samedan, the highest airport in Europe at over 5600ft MSL, has the same winch with four drums. No problems at all. It's heaven compared to the voluminous petrol monster they had before. BTW these winches use an average of 0.4 litres of Diesel per launch. How much petrol per launch did the previous winch use? Is there a big price difference between the two fuels? Don't know about theirs. The winch we had before this one was a 380hp GM Engine, built about 1964. We used just under 1 litre of petrol with that. Yes, they really swallow a lot at over 4000rpm. Price difference between the two fuels is marginal here in Switzerland, diesel being a bit more expensive most of the time. All around us Diesel is much cheaper than Petrol. Keep in mind that fuel prices in Europe are about four times the US prices. Also, as someone else already posted, fuel price is only one of many things adding to the total launch cost. |
#53
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#54
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Marc Ramsey wrote in message .com...
Craig Freeman wrote: By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually build a winch if such a design were presented? I'd build one, but with the constraint that it can be built on a trailer that can be pulled by a mid-size pickup or SUV (under 4000 lbs. total). Anything larger, or built on a truck is, in my opinion, not practical for anything other than primarily fixed site usage. Marc That's one. I got the portable under 4000 lbs covered. What other things would you like to see. One drum, two, three, ten? Do you have a budget in mind? What tools do you have available? How much time do you have? Craig- |
#55
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"Craig Freeman" wrote in message After more investigation I have the following which may help carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least, does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry. It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door. YeeeHaa!! I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own complications. Craig- Craig, that's good enough for me. I wouldn't want to control the diesel with the ECU hack, just use it as a safety limit on torque output. The idea is to make sure that if the autothrottle went haywire or a ham handed winch driver turned the wick up too far there would be no danger of damaging a glider. Bill Daniels |
#56
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"Craig Freeman" wrote in message om... (Craig Freeman) wrote in message . com... "Bob Korves" wrote in message ... "Craig Freeman" wrote in message I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar) dealer. We are full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the ECU's of these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for high school drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the engines. Shrink wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it would probably be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor, "electronic foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to do what you need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details... -Bob Korves I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company services around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig at the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again. Believe me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under the hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal. The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers have, all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and service writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we can reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application. Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out. I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition. "to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA using commercially available parts without a whole lot of modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a design. By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you. Craig- After more investigation I have the following which may help carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least, does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry. It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door. YeeeHaa!! I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own complications. Craig- Craig, define "midsize diesel". Would a Cummins N14 qualify? Bill Daniels |
#58
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Craig Freeman wrote:
That's one. I got the portable under 4000 lbs covered. What other things would you like to see. One drum, two, three, ten? I don't see need for more than two. Do you have a budget in mind? $15000 or under would be great, $20000 is at the edge of making the whole thing infeasible. What tools do you have available? How much time do you have? My approach would be to pull together a group in Northern California and Nevada to fund and construct it as a non-profit corporation. Tools, skills, and time available would be dependent on who I could get to sign on... Marc |
#59
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"Littleboy" wrote in message ews.com... In article , says... (Craig Freeman) wrote in message . com... "Bob Korves" wrote in message ... "Craig Freeman" wrote in message I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar) dealer. We are full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the ECU's of these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for high school drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the engines. Shrink wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it would probably be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor, "electronic foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to do what you need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details... -Bob Korves I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company services around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig at the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again. Believe me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under the hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal. The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers have, all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and service writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we can reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application. Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out. I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition. "to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA using commercially available parts without a whole lot of modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a design. By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you. Craig- After more investigation I have the following which may help carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least, does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry. It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door. YeeeHaa!! I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own complications. Craig- Just a lurker here, with great interest in soaring, but little experience. However, I may have some expertise in the subject of this thread. If I had never seen a sailplane winch, a clean sheet as it were, the winch I would design would be an engine (fuel makes little difference at this stage) and generator. The drums would be powered by an electric motor(s) via a variable speed drive(s). A variable speed drive can be programmed and operated through a computer, with virtually every parameter of motor operation infinitely variable. For example, the parameters for every sailplane could be configured for the drive and then it would be a simple mouse click to set all the launch variables for any sailplane configuration. You could get so slick with this. Maximum cable speed could be set. Maximum acceleration rates could be set. Every conceivable parameter could be set and modified in seconds. Man, it would be so cool. And another nice thing about it? Everything is very reliable, long lived, and reasonably priced on the used market. And there ain't nothin' that pulls like an electric motor. Ever been on a high speed electric train? They just pull and pull and pull. Maximum torque at zero rpm. A good engineer would have a field day with this. What a great project this could be. Google: "Elektrostartwinde ESW 2B" and use the German to English language tools. Search further with "segelflug elektrowinde". These boys use 50 car batteries recharging them from the mains or a diesel genset. Take a look at: http://www.skylaunch.de/album/index.html for a album of winch pictures. Look at: http://www.dassu.de/Wir_uber_uns/Ele...ktrowinde.html for a stationary electric winch. Electric winches could be (are) everything you say. My initial investigation indicated the cost was way too high, but then I'm far from an expert on high power electric drive stuff. Read the web pages above and post your opinions. Bill Daniels |
#60
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I've been reading all these posts w/ lots of interest. The basic winch
design is clearly fairly forgiving of specific design details due to the number of cobbled together winches which are out there. Probably hundreds worldwide. Take a frame and a cab and add to that a powerful engine, transmission, and some cable guides. All of this, while not easy, is straight forward and parts are readily available for cheap depending on whether you want to buy new (or rebuilt) or if you go scrounging for deals. The one trick item that I see which could stand for some specific development is a way to more effectively modify a rear axle off of a vehicle so that you maintain a 3/1 ratio from the drive shaft yet can positively disengage both wheels and then selectively engage either the right wheel or the left wheel to achieve the dual drum winch. There either needs to be a way to install a synchronizer type transmission coupling between the differential and the wheel or disengage the wheel at the end of the 1/2 shaft. This one part is the only item that's not already designed for "us". The Japanese are famous for copying designs which work well and then continuing to improve upon them. Might as well start with something that looks a lot like the Skylaunch since I think most of us would agree that Skylaunch is probably the gold standard out there. Unfortunately, with the current exchange rate a Skylaunch is well over $100,000 U.S. Take that basic configuration, improve upon it, but keep it inexpensive. This project should probably be moved to a slightly different forum like a yahoo group where people interested in participating can do so without filling up RAS. This also allows the sharing of files and even voting on ideas as the project starts to take shape. We're definitely onto something here, lets get started. We should start by doing some deciding as to what will be designed. 1 or 2 or more drums..... Mark remove duplicate "hot" to reply direct |
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