Winch Experts wanted

In article ,
says...

"Littleboy" wrote in message
ews.com...
In article ,
says...

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:405fd12c$1@darkstar...
LOL. I've never seen as much overengineering anywhere than
on RAS and in the government. Two winches? Does the wind shift
that often? How about one winch, right next to the existing
power lines (at least for the darned prototype)?

You guys crack me up with your "glider winch and power station
industrial complex" designs. If you're that rich, good
for you! ;P


http://www.glidingmagazine.com/Featu...cle.asp?id=293 covers just the
kind of thing you guys are re-inventing. By the way the unit cost them
56000
Euros and that was a year ago, at the time they considered it cheaper
than
the alternatives.

www.elektrostartwinde.de has details on commercial availability.

Some details
up to 20kw draw from the 3 phase mains supply
200kw launch power
850 kg max glider weight
1 g initial acceleration
Euro 1.90 per launch including cable, winch and battery replacements
Electronic motor control

There is a fixed multiple drum electric winch somewhere in Germany too.

Ian



Thanks for the link. A very nicely done installation, quite
professional.

I knew that my idea was not original enough for someone not to have
done it. It appears that one of the features liked most is the
electronic control of the motor. That was the point I was trying to
make. Modern electronic control of an electric motor just make so
much sense.

Some of the units I need conversions for especially a "daN", I know,
read assume, that it is a Newton but am unfamiliar with the prefix
"da"). There has been a big change in SI units since I was in college
and we insular Yankees haven't done a good job of keeping up.

Thanks again.

That confused me for a while too. daN = DecaNewton. 1 Newton x 10.

Do us a favor and price out the electronic controls.

Costs new, to contractor. Not the list price, but what I figure the
"street price" is. I could be off, but these are the figures I
personally would use for an engineering estimate.

1) VFD, Square D Altivar 66 drive, 460v, 100HP, well optioned $12,000
2) AC Motor, 460v, 100HP general purpose, totally enclosed $4,000
2a)AC Motor, 460v, 100HP inverter duty, totally enclosed $6,000

When I did it, the prices were astronomical but then, I'm not sure I was looking at the right
stuff. It seems that the "elektrostartwinde" folks used variable frequency
induction motors. That seems pretty sophisticated to me.

Bill Daniels

Littleboy wrote:

In article ,
says...

"Littleboy" wrote in message
anews.com...

In article ,
says...

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:405fd12c$1@darkstar...

LOL. I've never seen as much overengineering anywhere than
on RAS and in the government. Two winches? Does the wind shift
that often? How about one winch, right next to the existing
power lines (at least for the darned prototype)?

You guys crack me up with your "glider winch and power station
industrial complex" designs. If you're that rich, good
for you! ;P


http://www.glidingmagazine.com/Featu...cle.asp?id=293 covers just the
kind of thing you guys are re-inventing. By the way the unit cost them

56000

Euros and that was a year ago, at the time they considered it cheaper

than

the alternatives.

www.elektrostartwinde.de has details on commercial availability.

Some details
up to 20kw draw from the 3 phase mains supply
200kw launch power
850 kg max glider weight
1 g initial acceleration
Euro 1.90 per launch including cable, winch and battery replacements
Electronic motor control

There is a fixed multiple drum electric winch somewhere in Germany too.

Ian




Thanks for the link. A very nicely done installation, quite
professional.

I knew that my idea was not original enough for someone not to have
done it. It appears that one of the features liked most is the
electronic control of the motor. That was the point I was trying to
make. Modern electronic control of an electric motor just make so
much sense.

Some of the units I need conversions for especially a "daN", I know,
read assume, that it is a Newton but am unfamiliar with the prefix
"da"). There has been a big change in SI units since I was in college
and we insular Yankees haven't done a good job of keeping up.

Thanks again.

That confused me for a while too. daN = DecaNewton. 1 Newton x 10.

Do us a favor and price out the electronic controls.


Costs new, to contractor. Not the list price, but what I figure the
"street price" is. I could be off, but these are the figures I
personally would use for an engineering estimate.

1) VFD, Square D Altivar 66 drive, 460v, 100HP, well optioned $12,000
2) AC Motor, 460v, 100HP general purpose, totally enclosed $4,000
2a)AC Motor, 460v, 100HP inverter duty, totally enclosed $6,000



The DC motors used on the dragsters go for $1400
One such motor at http://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html


WW

Mark Zivley wrote:

This project should probably be moved to a slightly different forum
like a yahoo group where people interested in participating can do so
without
filling up RAS. This also allows the sharing of files and even voting
on ideas as the project starts to take shape. We're definitely onto
something here, lets get started. We should start by doing some
deciding as to what will be designed. 1 or 2 or more drums.....

Now you are talking!

Lets get the fundamentals right. We want a design that is easy to build,
not too expensive, simple to operate, easy to maintain and with safety
standards to meet current best practice. Performance should be capable
of launching a glass 2 seater trainer to a hight not less than 1/3 of
the runway length in zero wind conditions.

I vote for a big block V8 petrol motor powering a double drum winch. For
the guys who want to talk about exotics electric winches and diesels
with modified ECU's - go for it but lets separate the threads. I think
the successful 'one design' winch is going to run on petrol and will be
made from readily available hardware. If we have any spare cash left in
the budget we will spend it on plasma rope.

As a starting point, lets get some specs on winches that have been built
already together with performances achieved. We need to start off with
parameters like engine capacity and size, drum dimensions, final drive
ratios, gearbox/torque converter details and the source make and model
of the components used.

Then we need detail engineering drawings for the clever bits. Winch drum
axle mods, guillotines, guide pulleys. These should best be based on
proven designs. Details for a Skylaunch like throttle control would be
nice. Good engineering detail for the safety items like the operator's
cage and cable guards might save a few home builders from unexpected
injury.

The engineering should accommodate a choice of cables. Single strand,
multistrand or plasma. We need to spec those too.

We should also put together a "bill of materials" for anybody planning
on establishing a winching operation. I am thinking of a comprehensive
list of things like weak links, rings, 'chute, snake, signal lights,
radios, cable retrieve vehicle... That in itself would at least allow
for drawing up a proper budget.

As for a forum - if we are going to move off RAS, Al's gliderforum.com
might be a good home. If we want to run off an e-mail list, I can
probably make a plan to host it. We will also need a repository for
information - a web site - perhaps a "wikki".

Finally we need to establish some ground rules regarding copyright and
ownership of the design. My vote is to follow the "Open Source" model
used by Linux etc. Publish everything and allow anybody to use it - but
under the condition they publish details of what they build and how
well it works.

Who's in?

Ian

"Littleboy" wrote in message Costs new, to
contractor. Not the list price, but what I figure the
"street price" is. I could be off, but these are the figures I
personally would use for an engineering estimate.

1) VFD, Square D Altivar 66 drive, 460v, 100HP, well optioned $12,000
2) AC Motor, 460v, 100HP general purpose, totally enclosed $4,000
2a)AC Motor, 460v, 100HP inverter duty, totally enclosed $6,000

100 HP ain't gonna do it. We need 250 HP anyway to equal a 350 - 400 HP
Diesel. 250 HP is going to be $20,000 and the frequency converter control
box is going to be another $15,000. When I went through this, I stopped
counting at about $60,000 just for the power source. Diesel is going to be
a lot cheaper I think.

Bill Daniels

Some years ago when our Ford V8 and straight Jaguar
engines were falling apart someone suggested we went
on to Chevrolet engines 5.7l.

These were originally sourced from ex US Airforce buses,
like the typical US school bus. We bought the bus
took the engine out then scrapped the remains of the
bus. They were cheap even with a bus attached!

As far as I can recall they engines went straight in
the winch and then as they got tired were given a 'stock
car' tune and with heavy duty pistons etc.

Over about 15 years the engines have given excellent
service.The automatic gear box that came with the engine
is used for the drive and the drive lever fixed so
the winch driver can only engage neutral or drive.
The drive to the prop shaft can be tailored to any
axle with a bit of skilled welding.

Our main winches are a Skylaunch and Tost with the
Chevrolet engine. The engine in the Tost sits on a
sledge with gearbox and radiator attached, so if anything
breaks it can be easily removed and a spare slid in.
The current engine runs on gas and will launch A DG
500 with no problems.

We went for this engine because it is readily available,
either new, from a bus or re conditioned. Spare parts
are also available. It can also be easily tuned and
played with to produce extra power

Not sure what the full description of the engine is
but this US site found by a simple internet search

http://www.automotix.com/engines_by_...-engines_t---C
HV-350RLB-4.html

This looks like the engines we use. The prices also
look very reasonable.

Dave

Skylaunch already have developed, trouble-shot and
built 30 or so examples of the big V8 petrol/LPG twin
drum, controlled launch power winch design you seem
to be re-inventing. It sems sensible to use this experience
so why not just buy one, investigate building them
under licence, get a kit from them, or get Mike Grove's
advice on a consultancy basis?

As one of a sub-committee looking at the Supacat replacement
we have decided to recommend a Skylaunch to the Board
of Directors of our club as the only realistic option
available worldwide to improve on our current Supacat
diesel 180hp winch. The cost will be about £60,000
including options for the 8.2 litre LPG GM marine V8
version. The Supacat made a profit of £29,000 last
year and £16,000 in 2002 - after paying the cost of
full time professional winch drivers, maintence and
depreciation (from about 8-9000 launches I think).
The new winch will be paid off within a very few few
years. Busy, reliable, modern winches are just a license
to print money.

It is worth having a look at the Skylaunch german text
site as it has a whole lot more useful information
than the UK site about the various kit forms of the
Skylaunch and prices etc. It also has pictures of
the more basic Skylaunch 3 version.

http://www.skylaunch.de/

http://www.skylaunchuk.com/

John Galloway




At 22:18 23 March 2004, Ian Forbes wrote:
Now you are talking!

Lets get the fundamentals right. We want a design that
is easy to build,
not too expensive, simple to operate, easy to maintain
and with safety
standards to meet current best practice. Performance
should be capable
of launching a glass 2 seater trainer to a hight not
less than 1/3 of
the runway length in zero wind conditions.

I vote for a big block V8 petrol motor powering a double
drum winch. For
the guys who want to talk about exotics electric winches
and diesels
with modified ECU's - go for it but lets separate the
threads. I think
the successful 'one design' winch is going to run on
petrol and will be
made from readily available hardware. If we have any
spare cash left in
the budget we will spend it on plasma rope.

As a starting point, lets get some specs on winches
that have been built
already together with performances achieved. We need
to start off with
parameters like engine capacity and size, drum dimensions,
final drive
ratios, gearbox/torque converter details and the source
make and model
of the components used.

Then we need detail engineering drawings for the clever
bits. Winch drum
axle mods, guillotines, guide pulleys. These should
best be based on
proven designs. Details for a Skylaunch like throttle
control would be
nice. Good engineering detail for the safety items
like the operator's
cage and cable guards might save a few home builders
from unexpected
injury.

The engineering should accommodate a choice of cables.
Single strand,
multistrand or plasma. We need to spec those too.

We should also put together a 'bill of materials' for
anybody planning
on establishing a winching operation. I am thinking
of a comprehensive
list of things like weak links, rings, 'chute, snake,
signal lights,
radios, cable retrieve vehicle... That in itself would
at least allow
for drawing up a proper budget.

As for a forum - if we are going to move off RAS, Al's
gliderforum.com
might be a good home. If we want to run off an e-mail
list, I can
probably make a plan to host it. We will also need
a repository for
information - a web site - perhaps a 'wikki'.

Finally we need to establish some ground rules regarding
copyright and
ownership of the design. My vote is to follow the 'Open
Source' model
used by Linux etc. Publish everything and allow anybody
to use it - but
under the condition they publish details of what they
build and how
well it works.

Who's in?

Ian

In article ,
says...

"Littleboy" wrote in message Costs new, to
contractor. Not the list price, but what I figure the
"street price" is. I could be off, but these are the figures I
personally would use for an engineering estimate.

1) VFD, Square D Altivar 66 drive, 460v, 100HP, well optioned $12,000
2) AC Motor, 460v, 100HP general purpose, totally enclosed $4,000
2a)AC Motor, 460v, 100HP inverter duty, totally enclosed $6,000

100 HP ain't gonna do it. We need 250 HP anyway to equal a 350 - 400 HP
Diesel. 250 HP is going to be $20,000 and the frequency converter control
box is going to be another $15,000. When I went through this, I stopped
counting at about $60,000 just for the power source. Diesel is going to be
a lot cheaper I think.

Bill Daniels


No doubt about it. The broader engineering question is, does the
increased value of ease and sophistication of control inherent in an
electric winch, plus its lower life cycle costs, offset the lower
first cost of an engine driven winch.

This is a perennial engineering issue, first cost, value and life
cycle costs. As has been shown by the numerous winching solutions
used by various clubs presented here, everyone will have to make
there own decisions.

The chassis mounted winch from Germany,
http://www.beepworld.de/members28/onkelmaggus/ shown here, indicates
they expect a winch life of thirty years. It appears that these
individuals have voted for life cycle costs.

And given the winch duty cycles presented here, I am far from
convinced that diesel is a viable economic solution. I would be more
inclined to go to spark ignition using lpg as fuel.

Anyway, I've beat this horse all I'm inclined to do. I do appreciate
everyones feedback.

"Ian Forbes" wrote in message
...
Mark Zivley wrote:

This project should probably be moved to a slightly different forum
like a yahoo group where people interested in participating can do so
without
filling up RAS. This also allows the sharing of files and even voting
on ideas as the project starts to take shape. We're definitely onto
something here, lets get started. We should start by doing some
deciding as to what will be designed. 1 or 2 or more drums.....

Now you are talking!

Lets get the fundamentals right. We want a design that is easy to build,
not too expensive, simple to operate, easy to maintain and with safety
standards to meet current best practice. Performance should be capable
of launching a glass 2 seater trainer to a hight not less than 1/3 of
the runway length in zero wind conditions.

I vote for a big block V8 petrol motor powering a double drum winch. For
the guys who want to talk about exotics electric winches and diesels
with modified ECU's - go for it but lets separate the threads. I think
the successful 'one design' winch is going to run on petrol and will be
made from readily available hardware. If we have any spare cash left in
the budget we will spend it on plasma rope.

As a starting point, lets get some specs on winches that have been built
already together with performances achieved. We need to start off with
parameters like engine capacity and size, drum dimensions, final drive
ratios, gearbox/torque converter details and the source make and model
of the components used.

Then we need detail engineering drawings for the clever bits. Winch drum
axle mods, guillotines, guide pulleys. These should best be based on
proven designs. Details for a Skylaunch like throttle control would be
nice. Good engineering detail for the safety items like the operator's
cage and cable guards might save a few home builders from unexpected
injury.

The engineering should accommodate a choice of cables. Single strand,
multistrand or plasma. We need to spec those too.

We should also put together a "bill of materials" for anybody planning
on establishing a winching operation. I am thinking of a comprehensive
list of things like weak links, rings, 'chute, snake, signal lights,
radios, cable retrieve vehicle... That in itself would at least allow
for drawing up a proper budget.

As for a forum - if we are going to move off RAS, Al's gliderforum.com
might be a good home. If we want to run off an e-mail list, I can
probably make a plan to host it. We will also need a repository for
information - a web site - perhaps a "wikki".

Finally we need to establish some ground rules regarding copyright and
ownership of the design. My vote is to follow the "Open Source" model
used by Linux etc. Publish everything and allow anybody to use it - but
under the condition they publish details of what they build and how
well it works.

Who's in?

Ian


Ian. I admire your enthusiasm and support your ideas, but the economics need
a bit of discussion.

Winches are VERY profitable. The operational cost is less than $2US per
launch and most people will find $10 is a reasonable launch fee. That's a
500% profit with a volunteer crew in a club setting. The Return On
Investment for a $30,000 winch is just 63 operating days figuring an average
of 60 launches a day. A dual drum winch in a training environment can do a
LOT more than 60 launches a day.

After the club has its ROI it can buy a new glider every year with the
profits. That's the REAL secret of how those European clubs own all that
nice glass. They put their money into gliders instead of air tow fees.

My concern is that by focusing on the "build it cheap" aspect, the
productivity of the machine will be lost. That's where American winches
have gone wrong in the past. Just a couple of weekends lost to winch
repairs is significant. If the "Hassle Factor" is too large, people will go
back to air tow.

Build it right, make it reliable and as productive as possible no matter if
it costs more to build. If a diesel engine is more productive than a spark
ignition engine then pay the extra money for one. If Spectra improves the
operation by reducing cable breaks and tangles then pony up for it. The ROI
comes very quickly. Almost ANYTHING that increases the number of launches
per day or makes the whole operation easier and more pleasant is worth the
investment.

Bill Daniels

We all know "cheap" is a relative word. Cheaper than a Skylaunch leaves
a lot of ground. Just like any design project, we need to start with
some goals.

Reality is that a 2 drum winch probably is the peak in operational
efficiency coupled with simplicity of design. Piggot's book recommends
multiple 2 drum winches over winch designs with more than 3 drums.
Safety for the operator is paramount and clearly we need to be providing
enough power to handle a glider on a Black weak link. In general this
design should keep cost in mind, but surely as any club or group starts
to embark on construction they will have a lot of latitude as to how
they control costs. Do they buy a crate motor for $3-4k or buy that
little old lady's Cadillac for $500.

However, the first thing needs to be a forum off of RAS where we can
work. Ulrich started this, so I'll defer to his preferences. The Yahoo
groups are free, offer file sharing (I think) and it's easy to set up
topics to be voted on by the members. With that, we can start nailing
down the design goals.

Bill Daniels wrote:
"Ian Forbes" wrote in message
...

Mark Zivley wrote:


This project should probably be moved to a slightly different forum
like a yahoo group where people interested in participating can do so
without
filling up RAS. This also allows the sharing of files and even voting
on ideas as the project starts to take shape. We're definitely onto
something here, lets get started. We should start by doing some
deciding as to what will be designed. 1 or 2 or more drums.....

Now you are talking!

Lets get the fundamentals right. We want a design that is easy to build,
not too expensive, simple to operate, easy to maintain and with safety
standards to meet current best practice. Performance should be capable
of launching a glass 2 seater trainer to a hight not less than 1/3 of
the runway length in zero wind conditions.

I vote for a big block V8 petrol motor powering a double drum winch. For
the guys who want to talk about exotics electric winches and diesels
with modified ECU's - go for it but lets separate the threads. I think
the successful 'one design' winch is going to run on petrol and will be
made from readily available hardware. If we have any spare cash left in
the budget we will spend it on plasma rope.

As a starting point, lets get some specs on winches that have been built
already together with performances achieved. We need to start off with
parameters like engine capacity and size, drum dimensions, final drive
ratios, gearbox/torque converter details and the source make and model
of the components used.

Then we need detail engineering drawings for the clever bits. Winch drum
axle mods, guillotines, guide pulleys. These should best be based on
proven designs. Details for a Skylaunch like throttle control would be
nice. Good engineering detail for the safety items like the operator's
cage and cable guards might save a few home builders from unexpected
injury.

The engineering should accommodate a choice of cables. Single strand,
multistrand or plasma. We need to spec those too.

We should also put together a "bill of materials" for anybody planning
on establishing a winching operation. I am thinking of a comprehensive
list of things like weak links, rings, 'chute, snake, signal lights,
radios, cable retrieve vehicle... That in itself would at least allow
for drawing up a proper budget.

As for a forum - if we are going to move off RAS, Al's gliderforum.com
might be a good home. If we want to run off an e-mail list, I can
probably make a plan to host it. We will also need a repository for
information - a web site - perhaps a "wikki".

Finally we need to establish some ground rules regarding copyright and
ownership of the design. My vote is to follow the "Open Source" model
used by Linux etc. Publish everything and allow anybody to use it - but
under the condition they publish details of what they build and how
well it works.

Who's in?

Ian



Ian. I admire your enthusiasm and support your ideas, but the economics need
a bit of discussion.

Winches are VERY profitable. The operational cost is less than $2US per
launch and most people will find $10 is a reasonable launch fee. That's a
500% profit with a volunteer crew in a club setting. The Return On
Investment for a $30,000 winch is just 63 operating days figuring an average
of 60 launches a day. A dual drum winch in a training environment can do a
LOT more than 60 launches a day.

After the club has its ROI it can buy a new glider every year with the
profits. That's the REAL secret of how those European clubs own all that
nice glass. They put their money into gliders instead of air tow fees.

My concern is that by focusing on the "build it cheap" aspect, the
productivity of the machine will be lost. That's where American winches
have gone wrong in the past. Just a couple of weekends lost to winch
repairs is significant. If the "Hassle Factor" is too large, people will go
back to air tow.

Build it right, make it reliable and as productive as possible no matter if
it costs more to build. If a diesel engine is more productive than a spark
ignition engine then pay the extra money for one. If Spectra improves the
operation by reducing cable breaks and tangles then pony up for it. The ROI
comes very quickly. Almost ANYTHING that increases the number of launches
per day or makes the whole operation easier and more pleasant is worth the
investment.

Bill Daniels

In my experience, one drum is pretty adequate.

Most fields in the US are limited in length, so the launch height is usually
just enough for a pattern. I find with one drum I can launch a ship, retrieve
the chute, and have be back at the launch point just as the glider lands. We
turn the glider around (usually lands cross wind), and we're ready to go with
another. We achieve about 6-7 launches per hour this way at my field..until
two or three other people turn up (with little experience but they're BS'ed the
membership into thinking they know what they're doing) and our rate goes down
to about 3 an hour.

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ
illspam