Black Boxes for GA Aircraft...Good or Bad?

"RK Henry" wrote in message
...
On 27 Oct 2006 08:08:48 -0700, "Greengears"
wrote:

Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?


... It
could save up to $1,000 a year in owner insurance, a company official
estimated. ...

Savings of up to $1,000/yr in insurance? Holy cow! How much does it
cost to insure one of those things otherwise?


$15K/year or thereabouts.

Does that mean that if I put one on my Warrior that I could insure for
free?

You could ask your agent...but don't get your hopes up.:)


RK Henry

John Severyn
@KLVK

Greengears writes:

Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?

Anything that helps determine the cause of accidents is essentially a
good thing. However, because of the cost of the black boxes and the
relatively limited budgets of GA aviators, I don't think that they
should be mandatory. Flight schools might more easily be able to
assume the cost, but I'm not sure I see the value of installing them
specifically at flight schools. The real mystery accidents are not
likely to involve flight schools.

'BLACK BOXES' SOON AVAILABLE FOR CIRRUS AIRPLANES

Somehow it doesn't surprise me that Cirrus would be mentioned in
connection with this.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Matt Whiting writes:

That assumes it survives the wreck.

Small, solid-state devices can survive some extraordinarily high
accelerations, even if they aren't necessarily built to do so.
There's certainly a good chance that something like a flash memory
device will survive intact.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

In article . com,
"Greengears" wrote:

Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?

No.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

Greengears wrote:
Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?


Flight schools? I don't see the benefit. The article did say something
about Pt135 operations flying Cirruses having them installed - if that
gets them a break in insurance then I guess there's no harm

J. Severyn wrote:
"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote in message
news:yvidnbruEJwv59_YnZ2dnUVZ_rGdnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
I wish cars had these.

Most cars built today do have a black box....the engine control unit.
Records speed, temp, engine RPM, MAP, transmission gear, and may include
airbag state, brake application and other sensors depending on make and
model. Post crash, the data can be used for or against you.

Exactly. Some states are passing laws preventing insurance companies
from using your car's data against you. There have already been some
convictions where the defendant claimed to not have been speeding
before an accident, but the engine and transmission computers' memory
showed otherwise.

There was even a priest in a nighttime hit-and-run case who claimed not
to have seen anybody, but his car module showed that he hit his brakes
at the time the person was killed. He was convicted.

Kev

Greengears wrote:
Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?



Since insurance companies are in the business of finding who is at
fault, I suppose it could have some benefit to them if you had such a
box, and it would be fair to expect to get a discount in your premiums.

However, you asked whether flight schools _should_ have these boxes.
The only way that would be true is if it found its way into the FARs. I
hope that would never become the case because the FAA is in the
business of improving aviation safety, and this box does nothing to
improve safety.

$5K for the box.

Any estimates on cost for installation?

Any estimates on cost & agony for FSDO approval for installation?

Mxsmanic wrote:
That assumes it survives the wreck.

Small, solid-state devices can survive some extraordinarily high
accelerations, even if they aren't necessarily built to do so.
There's certainly a good chance that something like a flash memory
device will survive intact.

We designed something similar a few years back (still being evaluated
by the SE FSDO, I believe) although our goal was long-term recording of
stress on the airframe. We designed it to include optional aircraft
data, but your average 30 year old C-172 or Warrior just doesn't have
much in the way of electrical data to record. None of the usual stuff
(control position) is there.

You could instrument everything of course, the the price would be
prohibitive (i.e. no one would pay for it).

While we were most interested in things like pulling so many G's that
the wings came off, the FAA rejected our first design because we could
potentially lose the last 100 ms. or so of data (i.e. the actual crash,
after the wings pulled off). We hadn't considered that important (it's
sort of "after the fact"), but they pointed out that in a lot of
mountain crashes the first sign of a problem is hitting the mountain.
We implemented a ferro-ram buffer (in front of the main storage) - both
non-volatile. Even if the pins got pulled off the IC, the die could
still be read (with difficulty).

"RK Henry" wrote in message
...
On 27 Oct 2006 08:08:48 -0700, "Greengears"
wrote:

Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?


... It
could save up to $1,000 a year in owner insurance, a company official
estimated. ...

Savings of up to $1,000/yr in insurance? Holy cow! How much does it
cost to insure one of those things otherwise?

Does that mean that if I put one on my Warrior that I could insure for
free?

RK Henry

If the insurance company thinks there enough value there for them to give
you a $1k/year discount for installing a $5k box it would seem they would be
better off just paying for the box and keeping their $1k per year. Then they
start really making money after 5 years.