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#1
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First NASA form filed
And I sincerely hope it will be the last.
I landed at LSE (LaCrosse) on the way home from the twin cities last week. I landed on 18 and asked for a progressive taxi to the FBO, having never been there before. Controller told me to turn left on taxiway bravo down to the construction cones at the end. As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS had called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was over the hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line. I think it's important to note that the controller had not told me to hold short of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a pretty flagrant violation. After a split second of uncertainty I told tower I was holding at 21. She immediately told me to continue past in the chipper tone she had been using all along. Note that nobody had landed on or departed 21 during the entire time of my taxi so there was no loss of separation. I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even though no explicit instruction had been given, though I'm not 100% sure of that (but in the future I'll be damn sure to in similar circumstances!). And, unless the controller deliberately wanted to make me believe nothing was wrong for some reason, I believe she either didn't notice I was over the hold (this intersection is pretty close to the tower) or didn't care. Her voice indicated nothing out of the ordinary, as I said. I know they don't 'have to' ask you to call the tower or let you know they're making a report, though. Though the logical side of my brain tells me that the chances of some enforcement action here would be slim, of course I filed the form regardless. I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that matter (the chance of some investigation). |
#2
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"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
news As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS had called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was over the hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line. I think it's important to note that the controller had not told me to hold short of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a pretty flagrant violation. Some people may not like me saying this but I do not agree with the rule that you are cleared to cross all runways on your way to where you are taxiing. I think the default should be that they must explicitly tell you you are cleared to cross ANY runway and when you don't hear that you must stop and ask (or call and ask as you are approaching it). I am frequently given instructions which make me cross an active runway without explicitly saying so and I always ask before doing so and STILL look out for traffic on it before crossing. |
#3
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Paul Folbrecht wrote:
I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even though no explicit instruction had been given ... You are incorrect. I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that matter (the chance of some investigation). After some initial puzzlement (e.g. "Umm, what's the problem being reported here?"), I would hope they'd realize you need some remedial training on airport operations. In the meantime, have a look at AIM 4-3-18. |
#4
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Brien K. Meehan wrote:
Paul Folbrecht wrote: I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even though no explicit instruction had been given ... You are incorrect. Good news to me if that's correct. However, a CFI I know (not my CFI) and a controller at another class D airport disagree with you. I should have mentioned this - this is why I decided to file the form. I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that matter (the chance of some investigation). After some initial puzzlement (e.g. "Umm, what's the problem being reported here?"), I would hope they'd realize you need some remedial training on airport operations. Yeah, I guess you're right, it's painfully obvious that a taxi clearance implicitly grants permission to grant *active* runways, and I'm hopelessly clueless. In the meantime, have a look at AIM 4-3-18. I'll certainly do that. |
#5
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Ok, well, you are quite right - AIM 4-3-18.6 is entirely clear on this
scenario and I had no obligation to hold. Since this does seem to be a fairly common point of confusion, though, I'd suggest that your condescending comment wasn't exactly warranted. Good think the mailman hadn't come yet. :-) Now how do you retract a post from Usenet? Brien K. Meehan wrote: Paul Folbrecht wrote: I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even though no explicit instruction had been given ... You are incorrect. I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that matter (the chance of some investigation). After some initial puzzlement (e.g. "Umm, what's the problem being reported here?"), I would hope they'd realize you need some remedial training on airport operations. In the meantime, have a look at AIM 4-3-18. |
#6
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On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 15:04:52 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
wrote: I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even though no explicit instruction had been given, though I'm not 100% sure of that (but in the future I'll be damn sure to in similar circumstances!). And, unless the controller deliberately wanted to make me believe nothing was wrong for some reason, I believe she either didn't notice I was over the hold (this intersection is pretty close to the tower) or didn't care. Her voice indicated nothing out of the ordinary, as I said. I know they don't 'have to' ask you to call the tower or let you know they're making a report, though. You need to review the AIM regarding taxi clearances. In particular: =========================================== 4-3-18. Taxiing 6. In the absence of holding instructions, a clearance to "taxi to" any point other than an assigned takeoff runway is a clearance to cross ALL runways that intersect the taxi route to that point. ============================================ (emphasis mine) While some may argue that clearance to cross each and every runway should be given by ATC, at least in the US, that is NOT the case. --ron |
#7
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At the "Communicating for Safety" conference put on by NATCA in Dallas, I
got the impression that there is a lot of controller sentiment in favor of changing the AIM's laissez faire approach to crossing runways enroute to the departure runway. Bob Gardner "Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message news And I sincerely hope it will be the last. I landed at LSE (LaCrosse) on the way home from the twin cities last week. I landed on 18 and asked for a progressive taxi to the FBO, having never been there before. Controller told me to turn left on taxiway bravo down to the construction cones at the end. As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS had called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was over the hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line. I think it's important to note that the controller had not told me to hold short of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a pretty flagrant violation. After a split second of uncertainty I told tower I was holding at 21. She immediately told me to continue past in the chipper tone she had been using all along. Note that nobody had landed on or departed 21 during the entire time of my taxi so there was no loss of separation. I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even though no explicit instruction had been given, though I'm not 100% sure of that (but in the future I'll be damn sure to in similar circumstances!). And, unless the controller deliberately wanted to make me believe nothing was wrong for some reason, I believe she either didn't notice I was over the hold (this intersection is pretty close to the tower) or didn't care. Her voice indicated nothing out of the ordinary, as I said. I know they don't 'have to' ask you to call the tower or let you know they're making a report, though. Though the logical side of my brain tells me that the chances of some enforcement action here would be slim, of course I filed the form regardless. I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that matter (the chance of some investigation). |
#8
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Speaking of which, I have been checking the accessible database at
https://www.nasdac.faa.gov/servlet/p..._schema=NASDAC and there hasn't been any new reports in there for months. |
#9
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When ever I cross a runway I always stop a look both ways then self announce
that I am crossing the runway (just like at an uncontrolled airport) just in case the controller made a mistake or forgot about me. Usually I get an "OK' reply. "Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message news And I sincerely hope it will be the last. I landed at LSE (LaCrosse) on the way home from the twin cities last week. I landed on 18 and asked for a progressive taxi to the FBO, having never been there before. Controller told me to turn left on taxiway bravo down to the construction cones at the end. As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS had called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was over the hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line. I think it's important to note that the controller had not told me to hold short of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a pretty flagrant violation. After a split second of uncertainty I told tower I was holding at 21. She immediately told me to continue past in the chipper tone she had been using all along. Note that nobody had landed on or departed 21 during the entire time of my taxi so there was no loss of separation. I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even though no explicit instruction had been given, though I'm not 100% sure of that (but in the future I'll be damn sure to in similar circumstances!). And, unless the controller deliberately wanted to make me believe nothing was wrong for some reason, I believe she either didn't notice I was over the hold (this intersection is pretty close to the tower) or didn't care. Her voice indicated nothing out of the ordinary, as I said. I know they don't 'have to' ask you to call the tower or let you know they're making a report, though. Though the logical side of my brain tells me that the chances of some enforcement action here would be slim, of course I filed the form regardless. I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that matter (the chance of some investigation). |
#10
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Paul Folbrecht wrote:
I'd suggest that your condescending comment wasn't exactly warranted. I'm sorry if it sounded that way, but I wasn't being condescending. Airport operations and following taxi instructions are basic knowledge required to fly safely. You might think it's safe to hold short of a runway "just in case," but you could have caused a taxiway incursion by stopping suddenly. There's nothing wrong with remedial training. If you don't know this area, you need to find out. If you learned it incorrectly, you need to repair that. Clarify this area of knowledge with your instructor and that tower controller (it's possible you misunderstood each other while discussing this). If he doesn't know it correctly, bring him along to someone who does, or at least show him the book. |
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