Chukar's own account

On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 12:21:49 +0000, Jock Proudfoot wrote:

At 06:51 23 April 2015, krasw wrote:
On Thursday, 23 April 2015 04:52:26 UTC+3, Steve Leonard wrote:

Where does this "let go of the stick" comes from? Never seen it in any
glider flight manual. Is there some magical airplane that does right
control in puts to get you out of trouble?


The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
http://spirit.eaa.org/intheloop/arti...n_recovery.asp

Interesting read. I wondered what Wolfgang Langweische had the say on the
subject (pages 342-345 in my copy). He's not as prescriptive but I think
his explanation and analysis is better.

Of course the answer is good pre-solo spin training and mandatory annual
spin checks at the start of each season: no spin checks, no fly. If you
or your club does winch launches, add a couple of launch failures to the
spin checks: the CFI can pull the bung himself or arrange for the winch
driver to simulate a power failure at an agreed altitude.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

torstai 23. huhtikuuta 2015 15.30.04 UTC+3 Jock Proudfoot kirjoitti:
At 06:51 23 April 2015, krasw wrote:
On Thursday, 23 April 2015 04:52:26 UTC+3, Steve Leonard wrote:

Where does this "let go of the stick" comes from? Never seen it in any
glider flight manual. Is there some magical airplane that does right
control in puts to get you out of trouble?


The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
http://spirit.eaa.org/intheloop/arti...n_recovery.asp

Thanks for interesting link. Trick calls for exact rudder input from the pilot, which is impossible in imc without gyros. And to extrapolate this to cover all gliders sounds like a major leap of faith. Paradoxically, stable spin would be safe way to get out of the cloud without instruments. But I'm not advocating that, most gliders will spin for a while and then go into spiral until things start to break apart.

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 9:32:58 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:

Of course the answer is good pre-solo spin training and mandatory annual spin checks at the start of each season: no spin checks, no fly.

Spin and Cloud Flying training are just too dangerous in the USA. And when IMC or a spin turn out bad, it's a Tragic Accident, not a Tragic Training Gap. The UK is reckless to provide training for these 'eventualities that should not happen' before they happen.

Sincerely, ****ed Off and Not Serious...

On 4/23/2015 5:21 AM, Jock Proudfoot wrote:
At 06:51 23 April 2015, krasw wrote:
On Thursday, 23 April 2015 04:52:26 UTC+3, Steve Leonard wrote:

Where does this "let go of the stick" comes from? Never seen it in any
glider flight manual. Is there some magical airplane that does right
control in puts to get you out of trouble?


The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
http://spirit.eaa.org/intheloop/arti...n_recovery.asp

Try it. I did. You may like it.

I never really needed it.

MG

--
Mike I Green

At 14:08 23 April 2015, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 9:32:58 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:

Of course the answer is good pre-solo spin training and mandatory
annual
=
spin checks at the start of each season: no spin checks, no fly.=20

Spin and Cloud Flying training are just too dangerous in the USA. And
when
=
IMC or a spin turn out bad, it's a Tragic Accident, not a Tragic Training
G=
ap. The UK is reckless to provide training for these 'eventualities that
sh=
ould not happen' before they happen.

Sincerely, ****ed Off and Not Serious...


I related the story to my so in law a a lapsed glider instructor and
current
737 driver.
His answer before I really finished was "his pitot froze,dived to try to
regain
airspeed and pulled the wings off "
And of course that makes sense the airframe is cold soaked and the cloud
has
to be wet or it wouldn't be a cloud .

Just wish it had been so obvious to me.

The "let go of the stick" part is probably a souvenir of the period (some 50 years ago) when gliders had airbrakes that kept the speed below Vne even in a vertical dive (this used to be specified in the standard class rules, before the Libelle/Cirrus/ASW-15 generation came up - see the Schweizer stories about vertical dive test flights). The technique you found in many gliding (teaching) manuals was indeed: "trim fully forward, airbrakes fully open, let go of the stick and rudder". At least here in Europe.

With modern gliders, the Vne limit will be reached long before a vertical dive position even with airbrakes fully deployed (I seem to remember that a 30° dive is sufficient with some open class self launchers or fully ballasted gliders). So it is probably common sense to try to hold the stick steady in pitch after trimming forward.

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 12:00:05 PM UTC-7, Jonathon May wrote:
At 14:08 23 April 2015, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 9:32:58 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:

Of course the answer is good pre-solo spin training and mandatory
annual
=
spin checks at the start of each season: no spin checks, no fly.=20

Spin and Cloud Flying training are just too dangerous in the USA. And
when
=
IMC or a spin turn out bad, it's a Tragic Accident, not a Tragic Training
G=
ap. The UK is reckless to provide training for these 'eventualities that
sh=
ould not happen' before they happen.

Sincerely, ****ed Off and Not Serious...


I related the story to my so in law a a lapsed glider instructor and
current
737 driver.
His answer before I really finished was "his pitot froze,dived to try to
regain
airspeed and pulled the wings off "
And of course that makes sense the airframe is cold soaked and the cloud
has
to be wet or it wouldn't be a cloud .

Just wish it had been so obvious to me.

I think this could be the case in a power plane but not a glider. We dont easily get fooled by a frozen pitot thanks to wind noise, especially not an experience pilot like Bob. Also his airspeed was showing over 160 knots before the wings broke off, so I very much doubt this is a case of frozen pitot. This is a simple case of loosing control due to disorientation in the cloud without proper instruments to regain control. Stall, spin turned into spiral, pilot pulls the stick instinctively to slow down which of course only make things worse in spiral, until wings broke off.

Ramy

LS6 does NOT have a benign spiral mode. And if I stall IMC with the flaps in cruise or thermalling position, it won't spin either - it will depart directly into a spiral. Which unless corrected pretty quickly, will leave you with a 1 meter wingspan LS6.

Without gyro instuments and training, IMC in a modern glass glider is a quick way to destroy that glider.

With gyros and training, it's just another skill - ask the Brits, who seem pretty good at it.

I suggest Son_of_Flubber get some education on how the Brits practice cloud flying before calling them "reckless".

A subscription to "Sailplane and Gliding" (The BGA's magazine) would be a good start to his education....

Kirk
LS6b 66

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 7:30:04 AM UTC-5, Jock Proudfoot wrote:


The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
http://spirit.eaa.org/intheloop/arti...n_recovery.asp

This applies to POWER PLANES in a SPIN. It DOES NOT APPLY to a modern glass glider IN A SPIRAL DIVE.

Anyone who doesn't understand the fundamental difference between these two situations really needs to get in the books!

Kirk
66

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 9:08:24 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

Spin and Cloud Flying training are just too dangerous in the USA.

Would you care to explain this remarkable statement?

How many accidents/injuries/fatalities annually are attributed to spin and cloud flying training in the USA?

Statistically, I would argue that landing training is just too dangerous in the USA, so we can just all pack up and go home now...

Kirk
66