Cold Weather Flying

"dave" wrote in message
newss0ib.737328$Ho3.180431@sccrnsc03...


If it isn't turning over like crazy in the summer and the battery and
wiring is good, then there IS a problem with the starter.
This is a very simple system.
I suspect that its a O-320 so the starter will not put metal in the oil
as it's only a bolt on type.

Thanks Dave. This sounds much better than the problem being a lack of a
geared starter. The engine is an O-320-E3D and it hasn't shown any signs of
metal during oil changes. The previous owner had the a/c for 3 years and had
the starter problem all along; he flew 196 hours with this issue, and I've
added another 65 hrs since May.

I would never suggest that you remove the four bolts that hold on the
starter and disconnect the fat wire going to the post and take it down
to your local automotive/tractor starter and generater rebuild shop.
It is not legal here in the states and i suspect that it is not legal up
there.
I saw a starter just like that on a old tractor once ;-)

I would never even considered such advice :-)) ... and yes, I'm no expert
but I suspect it is also illegal around here ... :-)

From what I've heard the starter hardware is Chrysler same as the
alternator, but I haven't had a chance to verify this.

Anyhoo, I'll check into the cost of overhauling the starter and post.

Thanks much.


Jose Vivanco
C-GPYH

Thanks Mike. From your experience and other comments on this thread it
seems; this is a common problem that doesn't get worse, does not create
irreparable damage and it can be fixed. At least it can be fixed so that the
engine doesn't stumble start in mid-summer. The previous owner was convinced
the solution was a geared starter, and he was probably right. Now, I'm
starting to get the impression the problem could also be fixed with an
overhaul of my existing starter.

As I mentioned on a previous post I'll research and post.

Cheers!

Jose Vivanco
C-GPYH


"Mike Spera" wrote in message
...
My 140 has required the initial "bump" you describe for the last ten
years I owned it. Our positive braided battery strap has always been in
marginal shape. I will probably replace it this fall. It is split at the
battery post and does not offer the best connection.

What is that hardened putty-like stuff that insulates it from the
battery box? That looks like a really crude solution. Do they make some
sort of (legal) rubber isolator as a replacement, or do I have to
replace it with the same goop?

By the way, I have had ours out in -13 and the oil temp is pretty low,
even with the plate on. No battery boost was needed, even with the aging
cable. With thermal underwear it was still too cool for my tastes. The
heater does not keep the plane at any comfort level below 0F. Here in
Illinois, +10-+15F is about the reasonable limit on a tiedown.
Fortunately, daytime temps don't go lower than that very often.

I see what the other respondent was saying about the hangar woes. Here,
they plow in front of the hangars and leave a nice 10-15 inch bump of
snow that turns to solid ice when the sun bounces off the hangars and
partially melts it during the day and it solidifies at night.

Mike

Jose Vivanco wrote:
I live in Ottawa, Canada and this is my first winter as a PA-28-140
owner.
My airplane does have copper battery cables (cable ?) and an engine
heater
but the previous owner warned me; in really cold weather, below
(-10C/-23 F)
it won't start without a battery boost. The battery boost is in addition
to
plug-in the aircraft for about an hour before departure. The aircraft
doesn't have an engine cover AND it does not have a geared starter.

Are there any other PA-28-140s with a similar problem?

I will be getting an engine cover, but I don't think this alone will
eliminate the battery boost requirements. The battery is two years old.
Normal summer start always looks like the battery is dead, i.e. one
blade
goes by and the prop stops turning, ignition back to off, then crank
again
and it fires up immediately.

My plan this winter is to get a trickle charger for the battery, blanket
battery warmer plus regular plug-in of the engine heater.

Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Jose Vivanco

C-GPYH.








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I have an E3D also. I noticed another fellow suggested field wiring open
circuits that cause this problem. Well, the problem has persisted
through 2 different starters (the second one a fresh overhaul when we
swapped out the engine). So, I tend to rule out the starter being the
problem.

Check your cable connections at the battery. They may be starting to
deteriorate.

Good Luck,
Mike
Jose Vivanco wrote:
Thanks Mike. From your experience and other comments on this thread it
seems; this is a common problem that doesn't get worse, does not create
irreparable damage and it can be fixed. At least it can be fixed so that the
engine doesn't stumble start in mid-summer. The previous owner was convinced
the solution was a geared starter, and he was probably right. Now, I'm
starting to get the impression the problem could also be fixed with an
overhaul of my existing starter.

As I mentioned on a previous post I'll research and post.

Cheers!

Jose Vivanco
C-GPYH


"Mike Spera" wrote in message
...

My 140 has required the initial "bump" you describe for the last ten
years I owned it. Our positive braided battery strap has always been in
marginal shape. I will probably replace it this fall. It is split at the
battery post and does not offer the best connection.

What is that hardened putty-like stuff that insulates it from the
battery box? That looks like a really crude solution. Do they make some
sort of (legal) rubber isolator as a replacement, or do I have to
replace it with the same goop?

By the way, I have had ours out in -13 and the oil temp is pretty low,
even with the plate on. No battery boost was needed, even with the aging
cable. With thermal underwear it was still too cool for my tastes. The
heater does not keep the plane at any comfort level below 0F. Here in
Illinois, +10-+15F is about the reasonable limit on a tiedown.
Fortunately, daytime temps don't go lower than that very often.

I see what the other respondent was saying about the hangar woes. Here,
they plow in front of the hangars and leave a nice 10-15 inch bump of
snow that turns to solid ice when the sun bounces off the hangars and
partially melts it during the day and it solidifies at night.

Mike

Jose Vivanco wrote:

I live in Ottawa, Canada and this is my first winter as a PA-28-140

owner.

My airplane does have copper battery cables (cable ?) and an engine

heater

but the previous owner warned me; in really cold weather, below

(-10C/-23 F)

it won't start without a battery boost. The battery boost is in addition

to

plug-in the aircraft for about an hour before departure. The aircraft
doesn't have an engine cover AND it does not have a geared starter.

Are there any other PA-28-140s with a similar problem?

I will be getting an engine cover, but I don't think this alone will
eliminate the battery boost requirements. The battery is two years old.
Normal summer start always looks like the battery is dead, i.e. one

blade

goes by and the prop stops turning, ignition back to off, then crank

again

and it fires up immediately.

My plan this winter is to get a trickle charger for the battery, blanket
battery warmer plus regular plug-in of the engine heater.

Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Jose Vivanco

C-GPYH.








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"Jose Vivanco" wrote:

I live in Ottawa, Canada and this is my first winter as a PA-28-140 owner.
My airplane does have copper battery cables (cable ?) and an engine heater
but the previous owner warned me; in really cold weather, below (-10C/-23 F)

-10C is actually +14F. The conversion formula is:

F = 9/5 C + 32

or

C = 5/9(F - 32)

It's helpful to remember a few points along the scale to get a quick
reference rather than having to do math in your head:

-40C = -40F
-18C = 0F
0C = 32F
10C = 50F
20C = 68F
30C = 86F

Jim Rosinski
N3825Q

Another quick estimation is to double the Celsius number and add 30.
Gets you close with very little brainpower.
Mike



jim rosinski wrote:
"Jose Vivanco" wrote:


I live in Ottawa, Canada and this is my first winter as a PA-28-140 owner.
My airplane does have copper battery cables (cable ?) and an engine heater
but the previous owner warned me; in really cold weather, below (-10C/-23 F)


-10C is actually +14F. The conversion formula is:

F = 9/5 C + 32

or

C = 5/9(F - 32)

It's helpful to remember a few points along the scale to get a quick
reference rather than having to do math in your head:

-40C = -40F
-18C = 0F
0C = 32F
10C = 50F
20C = 68F
30C = 86F

Jim Rosinski
N3825Q


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On 11-Oct-2003, dave wrote:

If it isn't turning over like crazy in the summer and the battery and
wiring is good, then there IS a problem with the starter.
This is a very simple system.

I agree the symptoms more strongly suggest a problem with the starter (or
connections to the starter) than the battery or charging system. But it's
easy to verify by load testing the battery.

--
-Elliott Drucker

You need a battery heater in additon to your engine heater.. See:

http://www.tanair.com/index.html

You should probably buy/make an engine blanket too.


Mike
MU-2



"Jose Vivanco" wrote in message
...

I live in Ottawa, Canada and this is my first winter as a PA-28-140 owner.
My airplane does have copper battery cables (cable ?) and an engine heater
but the previous owner warned me; in really cold weather, below (-10C/-23
F)
it won't start without a battery boost. The battery boost is in addition
to
plug-in the aircraft for about an hour before departure. The aircraft
doesn't have an engine cover AND it does not have a geared starter.

Are there any other PA-28-140s with a similar problem?

I will be getting an engine cover, but I don't think this alone will
eliminate the battery boost requirements. The battery is two years old.
Normal summer start always looks like the battery is dead, i.e. one blade
goes by and the prop stops turning, ignition back to off, then crank again
and it fires up immediately.

My plan this winter is to get a trickle charger for the battery, blanket
battery warmer plus regular plug-in of the engine heater.

Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Jose Vivanco

C-GPYH.

"Jose Vivanco" writes:

I will be getting an engine cover, but I don't think this alone will
eliminate the battery boost requirements. The battery is two years
old. Normal summer start always looks like the battery is dead,
i.e. one blade goes by and the prop stops turning, ignition back to
off, then crank again and it fires up immediately.

At -10 degC, my PA-28-161 will usually turn over and fire just fine
without preheat (also copper cables), and I'm not sure how old the
battery is. At first I had the heater plugged in for any subzero
temperatures, but now I just do it when it's significantly cold out.

From my relatively inexperienced point of view, I'd suggest having
everything checked -- battery, wiring, starter, primer lines, mags,
etc. -- given that we have similar planes and your summer start is
already suboptimal. It won't be any fun being stuck at a little
country airport in the winter with a plane that won't start.

By the way, my AME showed me a great trick for starting in general,
but one that's especially useful in the winter. Instead of opening
the throttle to get the engine to catch, keep the throttle almost
closed and pump the primer while cranking -- it seems to work much
better, and you don't end up surging the engine at 1200-1500 RPM (or
worse) when everything's still cold.


All the best,


David

C-FBJO at CYOW

Mike Spera writes:

By the way, I have had ours out in -13 and the oil temp is pretty low,
even with the plate on. No battery boost was needed, even with the
aging cable. With thermal underwear it was still too cool for my
tastes. The heater does not keep the plane at any comfort level below
0F. Here in Illinois, +10-+15F is about the reasonable limit on a
tiedown. Fortunately, daytime temps don't go lower than that very
often.

It might be worth checking the heater box -- they can corrode pretty
badly when not used, and the valve might not be moving all the way
Mine has jammed up twice in the year I've owned the plane, but my AME
cleaned out the corrosion at the annual, and at his recommendation I
now slide the heater and defroster all the way open and closed again
on every preflight (use it or lose it).

When my heater valve is working, my plane can get too hot even with an
OAT of -30 degC and I have to reduce heat (that's with thermal
underwear but no coat). I also don't use the oil cooler plate because
the one that comes with my plane does not seem to fit -- the oil temps
stay low, but still within the zone.


All the best,


David

"Nils Rostedt" writes:

Exactly. And when jumping into the plane after this workout
exercise, the body sweat promptly converts to ice on the windows ;(.

Try leaving the storm window open at first, until the defroster is
pumping out enough heat. That trick works to keep a car from frosting
or fogging up as well (just open the windows a bit).


All the best,


David