Average number of flights to solo for ab-initio students?

Frank, Maybe the better question would be "What was YOUR experience for
first flight to solo?"

Mine:
Already a private pilot SEL with hanglider and ultralight experience, was
at a commercial FBO and it took 10 flights to solo and 20 to check ride.

CH Ventus B

At 03:59 23 January 2012, Jeff Casto wrote:
At 18:27 22 January 2012, Frank Paynter wrote:
On Jan 22, 1:06=A0pm, T wrote:
On Jan 22, 7:53=A0am, Frank Paynter wrote:

My club uses the volunteer instructor model for student instruction,
and I am trying to determine how effective this model is versus
commercial soaring center instruction. =A0Based on my review of our
records (such as they are) it appears it takes our students an
average
of 33 flights from 'first ride' to solo.

Anyone else out there have similar objective data from their
operations?

TIA

Frank (TA)

A lot of data is missing from your basic determination of first flight
to solo.
Commercial operations are able to operate more days than just weekend
clubs. This allows closer repetitive flying days for the student. Are
you separating data of "add-on" and primary students? Does your club
maintaining training records and standard syllabus folders for the
volunteer instructors and students to review during the pre brief? Are
your instructors assigning reading material to prepare for the next
lesson? Or do your instructors just say "jump in let's go".

Are your students there at least one day every weekend and stay for
more than just thier lesson? A student who flies every other week or
has longer delays between fly days will need to repeat the last
lesson. Are assigned readings reviewed before the flight and the
syllabus followed? Is the student prepared? If they are instructed in
the checklist, shown the material in the handbook, and told to
memorize it for the next week. And then they show up to fly and had
not cracked the book, they are wasting the instructors free time and
their money.

A club with volunteer instructors can operate efficiently with a good
syllabus and lead instructor guidance.

I would venture that our numbers are slightly lower, but I have not
crunched or tracked the data. Everyone gets that student that just has
"the hands", and the student that does not, but thinks he already
knows everything. The second student will take more lessons to
complete.

T

Thanks for the input, but I'm not really interested in any of the
intangible aspects or 'which is better' arguments regarding commercial
operators vs club. I'm just trying to determine whether or not there
is a significant difference in the 'flights-to-solo' data, and whether
or not there is any real data on this parameter at all, commercial or
club.

Regards,

TA



Respectfully, Frank, without accounting for the confounders, the data is
relatively meaningless. Commercial operations are more likely to have
older
students who can pay commercial rates, but for some reason seem to take
longer. Clubs are more likely to operate fewer days per year than
commercial operations, but have a different way of looking at students.
In
addition, clubs in the south can operate more days than clubs in the
north,
so a student who starts in September in Minnesota will not solo as soon
as
a student who starts in September in southern California.

Young sailplane pilots seem to progress faster WRT stick and rudder
skills,
but the most important skill in flying is aeronautical decision making.
I'm
not sure 30 flights prepares a young person (or and old person, for that
matter) to make safe decisions in anything other than the conditions
he/she
has already experienced. The danger always occurs in situations the pilot
is not experienced in. My club, the Texas Soaring Association, is very
conservative in granting solo privileges to students. I can't tell you
the
average number of flights, and I'm not an instructor, but I was a student
just a couple of years ago. The instructors place a high level of
importance on being able to make good decisions in emergency situations,
while the routine MCA and unusual attitude recovery situations are just
expected normal proficiency.

At TSA, our student pilots don't solo until they've have spin training
and
can demonstrate safe recovery. How many clubs have such a requirement?
What
other differences in instructional philosophy exist at other sites?

So, without adjusting for the confounders, the data is not statistically
valuable. I suggest that you request data from sites that are similar to
yours in geography and daily operation, and have about the same number of
instructors available.

Best regards,

Jeff

Interesting debate.
Just to throw some survey results into the discusion, see:-
http://tinyurl.com/6vttgx5
for survey at Scottish Gliding Centre April 2009
brgds
Colin


At 16:57 23 January 2012, Cliff Hilty wrote:
Frank, Maybe the better question would be "What was YOUR experience for
first flight to solo?"

Mine:
Already a private pilot SEL with hanglider and ultralight experience, was
at a commercial FBO and it took 10 flights to solo and 20 to check ride.

CH Ventus B
snip

Frank,

Having instructed in both a Club setting as well as a commercial FBO setting, I agree with the other posters in terms of numbers. At the low end a number like 25 flights for young folks who can combine a lot of flights in a short amount of time and at a higher end... well... a lot. I think the most was somewhere near 80 spread over a couple of years for an older person with some real challenges and some real perseverence.

P3

On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 21:23:43 +0000, Colin Hamilton wrote:

Interesting debate.
Just to throw some survey results into the discusion, see:-
http://tinyurl.com/6vttgx5 for survey at Scottish Gliding Centre April
2009 brgds Colin

That's a very interesting read. Thanks for posting the URL. My club
(Cambridge) hasn't done that analysis AFAIK, but certainly my experience
was comparable, the more so as we're both predominantly winch sites.
However, geography probably has an effect. I think I can see two effects:

- I'd guess you average somewhat fewer launches to solo than us,
mainly because you have the Bishop and we don't, so for half the year
our training flights will be 6 minute sled rides.

- Bronze to Silver differs a lot too. We still have a lot of Silver C
completions very soon after Bronze XC endorsement, which in turn is
often quite soon after Bronze completion. In our case that's because
new solo pilots are converted to the Juniors within 10 launches or so
of going solo and are then encouraged to complete the duration
flights for Bronze and XC endorsement plus Silver height and
duration as part of the 50 launches needed for Bronze. As a result,
its quite common for a pilot to sit the Bronze written test over winter
while working on the the Bronze flights, then to do the XC nav and field
landing stuff in the SF-25 as well as the spot landings (in a Junior)
as soon as weather permits. Then they can complete Silver C with a
flight to Rattlesden or HusBos as soon as the next suitable day appears.
Seasonal weather, i.e. no soaring for us for half the year, says that
very often a pilot will be ready to do Silver Distance in late summer
when the crops are down, which is very convenient for all concerned.

In my case I joined the club in March, soloed that August, and then took
almost exactly a year to complete Bronze, having done the written over
the winter. Over 8 days next August during the Regionals I did Silver
Duration in a Junior, completed the Bronze CCE Nav/field selection
exercises in our SF-25 and was sent off to Rattlesden in a Junior to
finish Silver - very slowly in the blue (2hrs 44min for the 68km).

My guess is that our shorter period between Bronze XC and Silver has a
lot to do with both the flatness of the surrounding area, and hence lots
of landout fields once the crops are down, and somewhat less airspace for
a new pilot to blunder into than you guys have.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

In article
,
Frank Paynter wrote:

My club uses the volunteer instructor model for student instruction,
and I am trying to determine how effective this model is versus
commercial soaring center instruction. Based on my review of our
records (such as they are) it appears it takes our students an average
of 33 flights from 'first ride' to solo.

Anyone else out there have similar objective data from their
operations?

TIA

Frank (TA)

Hi Frank,

I soloed on my 30th flight in a club situation. I think Mary Jo soloed
in about 30 as well. Our flights were spread out over a year and 3 or 4
instructors. We were around 25 years old. 25-30 flights seemed to be
about normal for young people in our club at the time.

WB

On 1/22/2012 7:53 AM, Frank Paynter wrote:
My club uses the volunteer instructor model for student instruction,
and I am trying to determine how effective this model is versus
commercial soaring center instruction. Based on my review of our
records (such as they are) it appears it takes our students an average
of 33 flights from 'first ride' to solo.

Anyone else out there have similar objective data from their
operations?

TIA

Frank (TA)
1964 34 years old - Soloed 15th flight - 4 hrs:20min- Ka-7- all winch
tows. Big Beaver Airport, Birmingham MI - Vultures Club - Bob Kellner
Instructor

--
Mike I Green -MG

One flight in a G-103 in April, 1986 convinced me that I needed to fly
gliders. Four more flights in a 2-33 and I soloed on my sixth glider
flight.

Of course, I had lots of formation flight experience in the Air Force in a
single-engine jet so aero tows were no problem and, with all the simulated
flameout approach practice, landing without an engine was no big deal,
either.

Completed Diamond Badge in November, 1994.


"Mike I Green" wrote in message
...
On 1/22/2012 7:53 AM, Frank Paynter wrote:
My club uses the volunteer instructor model for student instruction,
and I am trying to determine how effective this model is versus
commercial soaring center instruction. Based on my review of our
records (such as they are) it appears it takes our students an average
of 33 flights from 'first ride' to solo.

Anyone else out there have similar objective data from their
operations?

TIA

Frank (TA)
1964 34 years old - Soloed 15th flight - 4 hrs:20min- Ka-7- all winch
tows. Big Beaver Airport, Birmingham MI - Vultures Club - Bob Kellner
Instructor

--
Mike I Green -MG

Hi Frank,

Late '70s - early 1980's USAF Academy soaring program
(Airmanship-451):

Planned 22 sorties to initial solo with the vast majority of students
soloing at that projection.

Weather permitting, the average student flying continuity was:
-If the course was taken during an academic semester, a rotating
schedule of flying twice per week for the first week then flying three
times a week the following week.
-If the course was taken over a three week summer period, flying twice
daily.

For a frame of reference--The USAFA soaring operation was (is) very
consistent WRT aircraft and instructor availability.

Regards,

Ray Cornay

On Jan 22, 10:53*am, Frank Paynter wrote:
My club uses the volunteer instructor model for student instruction,
and I am trying to determine how effective this model is versus
commercial soaring center instruction.

Frank (TA)

Our club uses the volunteer instructor model, and we fly Sat and Sun
mid Feb thru mid Dec. Continuity of training is a problem, even though
we use a syllabus
and a training folder to record training and progress. In addition we
have a private "instructor e-list"
to brief all instructors on training events each day training occurs.
In addition, student flight frequency is a problem
as they come out when they want to come out. We plan for 3 flights per
student per training day. Additional problems are
power traffic, skydivers, 60 ft wide paved runway with very limited
grass areas and runway lights, one runway 03-21 and
cold fronts bring crosswinds at 270-300. Alternate landing space for
PTTT is very limited. We use the ASK 21 for training.
All of this is difficult for newbies, and people who join are
sometimes discouraged by apparent lack of progress. Thus we have
abandoned
training ab-initio. We farm out this training to commercial
operations. Post solo from elsewhere on grass, exclusively glider
fields, in Blanik or 2-33, we often find it takes
20-40 more flights for solo at our field. For active airplane pilots,
used to traffic, radio, and accurate landings, it takes much less.
The direct answer to your actual question is that the club volunteer
instructor model is intrinsically less effective in reaching the solo
stage.
For an objective comparison, you must of course, reduce the variables
to a minimum of one. And yes, Condor could be helpful with the right
approach.