Iran's nuclear program

So now I've answered that question, maybe Denyav can answer why he thinks
the Manhattan Project went from "failure" to success in days, whilst
creating a non-US implosion device took years? (Somehow I expect he
won't.)

I am pretty sure if somebody had offered to any non-US country an almost
completely assembled plutonium bomb including a designed and Made in Germany
triggering syetem,any non US country would become a nuclear power overnight and
moreover the Charlatan who who took triggering system from Germans would be
hailed as a national hero who solved the seemingly insolvable triggering
problem at the last minute.

BTW when UK started producing plutonium? I guess 7 years behind Third Reich?

From: (Denyav)
Date: 8/14/2004 11:55 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:


BTW when UK started producing plutonium? I guess 7 years behind Third Reich?

The Nazi regime never produced any. If they had I am sure you can provide proof
or is that part of the stuff that is classified that only you and teuton know
about?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

The Nazi regime never produced any. If they had I am sure you can provide
proof
or is that part of the stuff that is classified that only you and teuton know
about?

Apparently you never heard anything about a location called Klein-Machnow and
German breeder there.
U-234 stuff (U boot not Uran) is still cladsified.
You must try to find out how an US scientists solved seemingly ubsolvable
triggering problem of plutonium bomb "at the last minute".

Heck,if the trade and and patent laws of today were used in 1945,von Ardenne
would be an even richer man.

Without stolen German nuclear technology US too would probably produce its
first plutonium bomb in 50s.

(Denyav) wrote in message ...
So now I've answered that question, maybe Denyav can answer why he thinks
the Manhattan Project went from "failure" to success in days, whilst
creating a non-US implosion device took years? (Somehow I expect he
won't.)

I am pretty sure if somebody had offered to any non-US country an almost
completely assembled plutonium bomb including a designed and Made in Germany
triggering syetem,any non US country would become a nuclear power overnight and
moreover the Charlatan who who took triggering system from Germans would be
hailed as a national hero who solved the seemingly insolvable triggering
problem at the last minute.

BTW when UK started producing plutonium? I guess 7 years behind Third Reich?

Most of the German atomics researchers ended up under Soviet control.
They published a great deal of work under Russian sounding pseudonyms
because Stalin found that the prominance of German names in the
Russian leterature was politically embarasing. They has a reputation
for thorough and hard work, through somewhat unimaginative, that
contributed greatly to the Soviet nuclear effort.

The standard knowledge is that the Germans made a test reactor that
was 'pre-critical': They lowered an array 1 inch cubes of uranium
suspended from chains into a shielded tank of heavy water. The
neutron population increased by a factor of 7 within the 'pile' due to
fissioning induced by a small neutron source placed near the pile.
From this they correctly deduced that they would need to increase the
linear dimensions of their 'pile' by 50% for the reaction to become
self sustaining. This puts the Germans in late 1944-1945 at about the
level the Allies were at 1942. There were no control rods on this
test device: control was to be by raising or lowering the uranium
array of draining the heavywater.

In some areas they were ahead. They worked in the direction of using
ultra high speed electronically switched centrifuges to stratify
uranium hexaflouride gas to enrich unranium and managed to make a few
milligrans of uranium at 5% or so. This was on only a single
centrifuge and a multilevel array would have been required.
Centrifuges are a better way to enrich unranium and this has become
the modern method. It was in fact perfected by ex German researchers
in the Soviet Union and then when they were realeased in the West.

The allied approach of breeding plutonium or building massive gaseous
diffusion plants to enrich natural unranium are not required to make
an atomic bomb.

One of the great 'frauds' that was used to justify WMD claims against
the Regime of Saddam Hussein related to the use of lightweight high
strength aluminium tubeing which was supposedly for the fabrication of
these centrifuges but turns out to have been for "Katuysha (little
Kate) unguided bombardment weapons.

The Germans must have been reasonably sure of success eventualy as
they set aside a Heinkel He 177 Grief to deliver such a bomb.

The standard knowledge is that the Germans made a test reactor that
was 'pre-critical': They lowered an array 1 inch cubes of uranium
suspended from chains into a shielded tank of heavy water. The
neutron population increased by a factor of 7 within the 'pile' due to
fissioning induced by a small neutron source placed near the

That was the part of the "tarnforshung",actually Germans dropped using Heavy
Water as moderator in the Summer of 1944.(Thats the reason why British
occupation troops found more than 10t heavy water in a warehouse in Hamburg).

German Nuclear program had three main locations,in Klein-Machow,Licherfelde
and Skoda.
When Hitler visited Klein-Machow in Oct.44 he was allowed to enter to plant
without his adjutant and personal body guard,so far for the secrecy and
importance of this location/
Interestingly enough, the names Klein-Machow and Skoda did not appear in any of
documents before the break up of the Soviet Union and DDR.

Germans were not only producing weapon grade uran using their perfect GUZs but
also producing plutonium using Klein machow breeder.



entrifuge and a multilevel array would have been required.
Centrifuges are a better way to enrich unranium and this has become
the modern method. It was in fact perfected by ex German researchers
in the Soviet Union and then wh

Centrifuge cascades were already in use in 1944.
The person you are mentioning is probably Dr.Zippe ,the father of GUZ.,he is
also developer of modern USSR and US centrifuges in historical order.(Basically
the same German designs)

The allied approach of breeding plutonium or building massive gaseous
diffusion plants to enrich natural unranium are not required to make
an atomic bomb.

Yup,German GUZ development made Oak Ridge obsolete even before producing
anything.
Another plus point of German method was,GUZ cascades needed only a small
fraction of energy required by gigantic plants like Oak Ridge,so Germans did
not need a german version of TVA.

Most of the German atomics researchers ended up under Soviet control.
They published a great deal of work under Russian sounding pseudonyms

Not only scientists ended up in USSR but also almost complete plants,inc.the
most of Klein-Machow breeder.
If Soviets had weapon grade Uran,they could built a nuclear weapon very early.
Obtaining weapon Grade uran was their biggest problem.

The standard knowledge is that the Germans made a test reactor that
was 'pre-critical': They lowered an

Standard knowledge is what victors make us to believe.

In his book Crusade in Europa Eisenhower states that if occupation of Germany
delayed only a couple of months,humankind would face greatest tragedy of
history.

Germany was practically defeated in 1942,in 1945 Wehrmacht could only find kids
and senior citizens to bear the arms.
So how already defeated Germany could possibly make devastating attacks in
Summer of 1945?

Answer is the S-weapon program,offical story is one thing official behaviour is
another.
Every post WWII organization (NATO,Echelon etc.)has been created to keep
Germans down and in check,even if they dont state it openly,because our Anglo
friends know better than anybody else,how close they were to the destruction
in 1945.

"Eunometic" wrote in message
m...
(Denyav) wrote in message
...
So now I've answered that question, maybe Denyav can answer why he
thinks
the Manhattan Project went from "failure" to success in days, whilst
creating a non-US implosion device took years? (Somehow I expect he
won't.)

I am pretty sure if somebody had offered to any non-US country an almost
completely assembled plutonium bomb including a designed and Made in
Germany
triggering syetem,any non US country would become a nuclear power
overnight and
moreover the Charlatan who who took triggering system from Germans would
be
hailed as a national hero who solved the seemingly insolvable triggering
problem at the last minute.

BTW when UK started producing plutonium? I guess 7 years behind Third
Reich?

Most of the German atomics researchers ended up under Soviet control.
They published a great deal of work under Russian sounding pseudonyms
because Stalin found that the prominance of German names in the
Russian leterature was politically embarasing. They has a reputation
for thorough and hard work, through somewhat unimaginative, that
contributed greatly to the Soviet nuclear effort.

The standard knowledge is that the Germans made a test reactor that
was 'pre-critical': They lowered an array 1 inch cubes of uranium
suspended from chains into a shielded tank of heavy water. The
neutron population increased by a factor of 7 within the 'pile' due to
fissioning induced by a small neutron source placed near the pile.
From this they correctly deduced that they would need to increase the
linear dimensions of their 'pile' by 50% for the reaction to become
self sustaining. This puts the Germans in late 1944-1945 at about the
level the Allies were at 1942. There were no control rods on this
test device: control was to be by raising or lowering the uranium
array of draining the heavywater.


There was no radiation shielding either. Achieving criticallity
would have killed the researchers and likely caused a nasty
nuclear accident as the reaction vessel boiled dry

In some areas they were ahead. They worked in the direction of using
ultra high speed electronically switched centrifuges to stratify
uranium hexaflouride gas to enrich unranium and managed to make a few
milligrans of uranium at 5% or so. This was on only a single
centrifuge and a multilevel array would have been required.

One thet held together for more than a few minutes
would have helped too. Fact is the Germans didnt have
the materials required to resist Uranium Hexafluoride.

Centrifuges are a better way to enrich unranium and this has become
the modern method. It was in fact perfected by ex German researchers
in the Soviet Union and then when they were realeased in the West.


Not quite. The first soviet centrifuge pilot enrichment plant was
run at Sverlovsk-44 in 1957 but it didnt produce significant
amounts of enriched material until 1964. Prior to that the USSR
used gaseous diffusion enrichment.

At the same time parallel developments were going
on in Germany, the Netherlands and Britain. The
first centrifuge in the UK was assembled in the 60's
These companies joined together to form Urenco

The allied approach of breeding plutonium or building massive gaseous
diffusion plants to enrich natural unranium are not required to make
an atomic bomb.


Plutonium is however the most likely unless you have
large stocks of Uranium

One of the great 'frauds' that was used to justify WMD claims against
the Regime of Saddam Hussein related to the use of lightweight high
strength aluminium tubeing which was supposedly for the fabrication of
these centrifuges but turns out to have been for "Katuysha (little
Kate) unguided bombardment weapons.


Indeed. we found out after the 1991 war that Iraq was using
gaseous enrichment.

The Germans must have been reasonably sure of success eventualy as
they set aside a Heinkel He 177 Grief to deliver such a bomb.

The Heinkel Grief was a rather unsuccesful aircraft that was only
set aside in the sense that it was produced in rather small
quantities. It would not have been capable of carrying a
first generation nuclear device and escaping the blast

Keith




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"Denyav" wrote in message
...
The standard knowledge is that the Germans made a test reactor that
was 'pre-critical': They lowered an array 1 inch cubes of uranium
suspended from chains into a shielded tank of heavy water. The
neutron population increased by a factor of 7 within the 'pile' due to
fissioning induced by a small neutron source placed near the


Note the last of these reactors was built in 1945 !

That was the part of the "tarnforshung",actually Germans dropped using
Heavy
Water as moderator in the Summer of 1944.(Thats the reason why British
occupation troops found more than 10t heavy water in a warehouse in
Hamburg).


Cite please.

German Nuclear program had three main locations,in
Klein-Machow,Licherfelde
and Skoda.
When Hitler visited Klein-Machow in Oct.44 he was allowed to enter to
plant
without his adjutant and personal body guard,so far for the secrecy and
importance of this location/
Interestingly enough, the names Klein-Machow and Skoda did not appear in
any of
documents before the break up of the Soviet Union and DDR.


You have to be kidding. Skoda was a WELL known company before and after
WW2. They happen to be one of our customers , I'll forward this
to them , they like a good laught

Germans were not only producing weapon grade uran using their perfect GUZs
but
also producing plutonium using Klein machow breeder.


That's KleinMachnow and you clearly dont know what a breeder
is or how one is built.



entrifuge and a multilevel array would have been required.
Centrifuges are a better way to enrich unranium and this has become
the modern method. It was in fact perfected by ex German researchers
in the Soviet Union and then wh

Centrifuge cascades were already in use in 1944.
The person you are mentioning is probably Dr.Zippe ,the father of GUZ.,he
is
also developer of modern USSR and US centrifuges in historical
order.(Basically
the same German designs)

The allied approach of breeding plutonium or building massive gaseous
diffusion plants to enrich natural unranium are not required to make
an atomic bomb.

Yup,German GUZ development made Oak Ridge obsolete even before producing
anything.
Another plus point of German method was,GUZ cascades needed only a small
fraction of energy required by gigantic plants like Oak Ridge,so Germans
did
not need a german version of TVA.

Most of the German atomics researchers ended up under Soviet control.
They published a great deal of work under Russian sounding pseudonyms

Not only scientists ended up in USSR but also almost complete
plants,inc.the
most of Klein-Machow breeder.
If Soviets had weapon grade Uran,they could built a nuclear weapon very
early.
Obtaining weapon Grade uran was their biggest problem.


Yet you claim they had the german researchers AND their equipment.

The standard knowledge is that the Germans made a test reactor that
was 'pre-critical': They lowered an

Standard knowledge is what victors make us to believe.

In his book Crusade in Europa Eisenhower states that if occupation of
Germany
delayed only a couple of months,humankind would face greatest tragedy of
history.

Germany was practically defeated in 1942,in 1945 Wehrmacht could only find
kids
and senior citizens to bear the arms.
So how already defeated Germany could possibly make devastating attacks
in
Summer of 1945?


Poison gas, they had large stocks of nerve gas

Answer is the S-weapon program,offical story is one thing official
behaviour is
another.
Every post WWII organization (NATO,Echelon etc.)has been created to keep
Germans down and in check,even if they dont state it openly,because our
Anglo
friends know better than anybody else,how close they were to the
destruction
in 1945.

Fantasy

Keith




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http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Eunometic wrote:

snip
The Germans must have been reasonably sure of success eventualy as
they set aside a Heinkel He 177 Grief to deliver such a bomb.

LOL -- apt typo. That's actually "Greif", meaning "griffon".
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

zalzon wrote in message ...
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 22:05:50 -0700, Thelasian wrote:

Rather the US says that Iran's nuclear program gives it the
CAPACITY to build nukes. But ANY nuclear program can be characterized
as that. Brazil has the CAPACITY to build nukes too.

Hi,
Such countries do not have a great amount of fossil fuels.


Do you have ANY idea what you're talking about? Russia alone is a
MAJOR exporter.


What justification is there for eyeran to persue electricity from nuclear
power which comes with a FAR higher economic (and political) opportunity
cost?


Well, for the answer to that I suggest you go to the Stanford Research
Institute which told the Shah of Iran in the 1970's that Iran can't
afford to rely solely on petroleum.


It was "pretty obvious" that Iraq had vatloads of anthrax too

That's a straw man argument, lets compare apples to apples.


No its not. It goes to show how "conventional wisdom" can be
manufactured.


It was pretty obvious that Saddam intended to build nuclear weapons with
his Osirak reactor. He himself admitted to it. When you see Eyeran,
Saudi Arabia, Venesuela, UAE ..etc building nuclear power plants, it is
for one reason only. And that is the pursuit of nuclear weapons.


Conclusory statement.


The only country that is a major net oil exporter and operates a large
number of nuclear power plants is Russia. Their reasons for
developing their extensive nuclear infrastructure despite the high
economic opportunity cost was for nuclear weapons (that despite their huge
gas and oil reserves). Electricity was treated as a byproduct by the USSR
until the country went bust.

Now here's a question for you :

Can you honestly say that Eyeran has no military intent whatsoever
attached to its nuclear program?


I can't read minds. But Having "intent" is not contrary to the NPT. In
fact Article X of the NPT itself says that countries have aright to
withdraw from the treaty if their national security requires them to
do so - it is not a blanket prohibition. Obviously, countries will
want to keep their options open - Iran is concerned about its security
just as much as the USA and I don't see the USA getting rid of its
nuclear weapons (despite a pledge to do so in the NPT) so naturally
the other signatories of the NPT will keep open the option of
withdrawing from the NPT too if potentially required to do so. That
was the basis of the NPT agreement, and if you don't like the
agreement, that's too bad.

However, like I said, keeping open the option of building nukes a
violation of NPT. The solution to that is for the parties to stop
threatening each other, so that none will feel the need to develop a
nuclear deterrent. The answer is NOT to say "OH well you can't have
any nuclear technology and meanwhile we're going to build mininukes
that we plan to use" which is what's been happening.

You have to be kidding. Skoda was a WELL known company before and after
WW2. They happen to be one of our customers , I'll forward this
to them , they like a good laught

Of course Skoda company was and is a very well known company but the skoda is
not only the name of a company.

Even though the name of skoda was famous for high tech equipment,aircraft
military equipment vehicles etc,its name never been mentioned in connection
with German nuclear program even though the parts of vast Skoda empire were
under direct control of SS and used to produce whatever developed in SS
advanced technology development center in Pilsen.
Needless to say famous Kammler was also responsible for SS controlled parts of
Skoda!.

Skoda was and probably still is a company driven by quality,its well known fact
that Dr.Zippe preferred Skoda built GUZs over Anschuetz built ones,even though
both of them were exactly same designs.

That's KleinMachnow and you clearly dont know what a breeder
is or how one is built.


Klein-Machow,and I guess I know.

Yet you claim they had the german researchers AND their equipment.

Yes but no Uran and no GUZs and an infrastucture far behind Germany,to make
matters even worse NKVD blundered badly
and was not able to pinpoint who designed German GUZs,so while they needed a
capable GUZ designer Dr.Zippe was working in a forced labor camp with other
regular German POWs as a POW.
Soviet GUZ development really started only after somebody spotted him in POW
camp.

Poison gas, they had large stocks of nerve gas

Poison Gas and the "Greatest tragedy that humankind ever faced"?
They do not add up.
Only something that might completely destroy New York,Washington,London and
probably Berlin fits into this apocalyptic description.

Fantasy

As you probably know very well,
Reality