Iran's nuclear program

One thet held together for more than a few minutes
would have helped too. Fact is the Germans didnt have
the materials required to resist Uranium Hexafluoride.

You make me laugh.Germans were ahead of US technology for a century.

Not quite. The first soviet centrifuge pilot enrichment plant was
run at Sverlovsk-44 in 1957 but it didnt produce significant

Again you make me laugh,the deadline set by soviet leadership to produce
enriched Uran using centrifuges was April 1 1948.Zippe GUZ produced enriched
Uran on March 21 and saved Soviet centrifuge development project.
BTW the very first Zippe GUZ was operational Feb.47.

Plutonium is however the most likely unless you have
large stocks of Uranium

In a country that have capacity to send over 500kgs enriched Uran (not Yellow
Cake like official version tells us) to Japan,this argument is irrelevant.

It would not have been capable of carrying a
first generation nuclear device and escaping the blast

I would not be worried about that,as if Germans had six to eight moths more
time ,their nuclear weapons would not be sitting inside any bomber but on tip
of a Balistic missille.

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
One thet held together for more than a few minutes
would have helped too. Fact is the Germans didnt have
the materials required to resist Uranium Hexafluoride.

You make me laugh.Germans were ahead of US technology for a century.


Which explains how they won WW1 and WW2 I suppose

Not quite. The first soviet centrifuge pilot enrichment plant was
run at Sverlovsk-44 in 1957 but it didnt produce significant

Again you make me laugh,the deadline set by soviet leadership to produce
enriched Uran using centrifuges was April 1 1948.Zippe GUZ produced
enriched
Uran on March 21 and saved Soviet centrifuge development project.
BTW the very first Zippe GUZ was operational Feb.47.


Thats NOT what Dr Zippe says, he states he was released
in 1956 after the first prototype centrifuge ran successfully.
Of course the Germans hadnt the sense to let Dr Zippe work
on enrichment during the war, he was working on aircraft
propellor design for the Luftwaffe

I suggest you read his story its more interesting
than your fantasies. Better still listen to the interview he gave
to the BBC. He makes it clear that the design they built
for the Russians had NO resemblance to anything built by the
Nazis

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/zippetype.shtml

The city of Novouralsk (Sverdlovsk-44) was established in 1941. Four years
later, the construction of the Urals Electrochemical Combine (UEKhK) began
there. UEKhK began producing highly enriched uranium (HEU) in 1949

The Ural Electrochemical Combine, site of the Soviet Union's first gaseous
diffusion enrichment plant, began operating in 1949. In 1950, certain
technical difficulties were resolved and UEKhK began producing tens of
kilograms of 90 percent enriched uranium. The original plant, called D-1,
was extended to include plant D-3 in 1951, and plants D-4 and D-5 in 1953.

source
Thomas Cochran, Robert S. Norris, Oleg Bukharin, Making the Russian Bomb:
From Stalin to Yeltsin, Westview, Boulder: 1995, pp. 183-184.


from http://www.uic.com.au/nip50.htm

Quote
As for uranium enrichment technology, it was decided in late 1945 to begin
construction of the first gaseous diffusion plant at Verkh-Neyvinsk (later
the closed city of Sverdlovsk-44), some 50 kilometres from Yekaterinburg
(formerly Sverdlovsk) in the Urals. Special design bureaux were set up at
the Leningrad Kirov Metallurgical and Machine-Building Plant and at the
Gorky (Nizhny Novgorod) Machine Building Plant. Support was provided by a
group of German scientists working at the Sukhumi Physical Technical
Institute.
/Quote

Plutonium is however the most likely unless you have
large stocks of Uranium

In a country that have capacity to send over 500kgs enriched Uran (not
Yellow
Cake like official version tells us) to Japan,this argument is irrelevant.

It would not have been capable of carrying a
first generation nuclear device and escaping the blast

I would not be worried about that,as if Germans had six to eight moths
more
time ,their nuclear weapons would not be sitting inside any bomber but on
tip
of a Balistic missille.

The only ballistic missile the Germans had was the A-4. Design
of a missile capable of reaching the USA had reached the
'sketch on the back of a knapkin' stage. Given how long
it took to make the A-4 operational they'd be lucky to
have one operational in 6 to 8 YEARS

Keith

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 05:22:08 -0700, Thelasian wrote:
Russia alone is a MAJOR exporter.

Soviet reactors were built primarily for nuclear weaponization and less
for reasons of economics. I devoted a whole paragraph to it in my last
email which apparently was ignored. Its one of the reasons the USSR went
bankrupt. The reactors which Russia are eager to export are not being
built at any frantic pace within Russia itself.


Well, for the answer to that I suggest you go to the Stanford Research
Institute which told the Shah of Iran in the 1970's

Might as well be quoting research from the 1930s which predicted the world
would run out of oil by 1980. Obviously knowledge and world events did
not come to halt in the 1970s.


No its not. It goes to show how "conventional wisdom" can be
manufactured.

Osirak was for n-weapons - that much we do know.

But Having "intent" is not contrary to the NPT.

Of course it is. That's the whole reason for the NPT.

My point from the start has not been a moral one but a statement of fact.
I contend that nuclear weaponization is eyeran's primary motivating
factor. I don't know why you are beating around the bush about the
issue. I never said it was immoral or there is some divine law which
entitles some countries to maintain nuke and not others. I was merely
making a statement of current events.

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"Eunometic" wrote in message
m...
(Denyav) wrote in message
...
So now I've answered that question, maybe Denyav can answer why he
thinks
the Manhattan Project went from "failure" to success in days, whilst
creating a non-US implosion device took years? (Somehow I expect he
won't.)

I am pretty sure if somebody had offered to any non-US country an almost
completely assembled plutonium bomb including a designed and Made in
Germany
triggering syetem,any non US country would become a nuclear power
overnight and
moreover the Charlatan who who took triggering system from Germans would
be
hailed as a national hero who solved the seemingly insolvable triggering
problem at the last minute.

BTW when UK started producing plutonium? I guess 7 years behind Third
Reich?

Most of the German atomics researchers ended up under Soviet control.
They published a great deal of work under Russian sounding pseudonyms
because Stalin found that the prominance of German names in the
Russian leterature was politically embarasing. They has a reputation
for thorough and hard work, through somewhat unimaginative, that
contributed greatly to the Soviet nuclear effort.

The standard knowledge is that the Germans made a test reactor that
was 'pre-critical': They lowered an array 1 inch cubes of uranium
suspended from chains into a shielded tank of heavy water. The
neutron population increased by a factor of 7 within the 'pile' due to
fissioning induced by a small neutron source placed near the pile.
From this they correctly deduced that they would need to increase the
linear dimensions of their 'pile' by 50% for the reaction to become
self sustaining. This puts the Germans in late 1944-1945 at about the
level the Allies were at 1942. There were no control rods on this
test device: control was to be by raising or lowering the uranium
array of draining the heavywater.


There was no radiation shielding either. Achieving criticallity
would have killed the researchers and likely caused a nasty
nuclear accident as the reaction vessel boiled dry

The 'reactor' was sunk in a pit in the ground, lined with thick
concret and graphite and submerged in heavy water. The Uranium cubes
were lowered slowly via a hoist and observed via remote
instrumentation from a great distance. The reactors was not designed
to opperate for any length of period: merely to establish criticallity
parameters. An increase in neutron population indicating criticality
would have immediatly led to termination of the procedure by withdrawl
of the fuel assembly or draining of the moderating heavy water.




In some areas they were ahead. They worked in the direction of using
ultra high speed electronically switched centrifuges to stratify
uranium hexaflouride gas to enrich unranium and managed to make a few
milligrans of uranium at 5% or so. This was on only a single
centrifuge and a multilevel array would have been required.

One thet held together for more than a few minutes
would have helped too. Fact is the Germans didnt have
the materials required to resist Uranium Hexafluoride.


Which are the same refractory and corrosion resistent metals required
to make jet engines.



Centrifuges are a better way to enrich unranium and this has become
the modern method. It was in fact perfected by ex German researchers
in the Soviet Union and then when they were realeased in the West.


Not quite. The first soviet centrifuge pilot enrichment plant was
run at Sverlovsk-44 in 1957 but it didnt produce significant
amounts of enriched material until 1964. Prior to that the USSR
used gaseous diffusion enrichment.

At the same time parallel developments were going
on in Germany, the Netherlands and Britain. The
first centrifuge in the UK was assembled in the 60's
These companies joined together to form Urenco

The allied approach of breeding plutonium or building massive gaseous
diffusion plants to enrich natural unranium are not required to make
an atomic bomb.


Plutonium is however the most likely unless you have
large stocks of Uranium

AFAIK see you need 12kg of U235. With a proportion of 0.7% that means
each weapon requires about 100%/0.7% x 12 = about 1680kg or raw
uranium. Say 2.5 tons. Assuming the Germans needed more we are
left with a need for maybe 5 tons per bomb. Say 3 test devices and 1
attack unit and 2 backups. A total requirement of about 15 tons.
(less than a 1 meter square cube of uneriched uranium).


One of the great 'frauds' that was used to justify WMD claims against
the Regime of Saddam Hussein related to the use of lightweight high
strength aluminium tubeing which was supposedly for the fabrication of
these centrifuges but turns out to have been for "Katuysha (little
Kate) unguided bombardment weapons.


Indeed. we found out after the 1991 war that Iraq was using
gaseous enrichment.

Because centrifuges require excellence in engineering.

Iraq wasn't 'using gaseous diffusion' as much as toying around with
experiments.

It is a measure of Germany's technical capacities that Iraq was barely
able to reproduce Germany's technolgy in rocketry and uranium 50 years
later.


The Germans must have been reasonably sure of success eventualy as
they set aside a Heinkel He 177 Grief to deliver such a bomb.

The Heinkel Grief was a rather unsuccesful aircraft that was only
set aside in the sense that it was produced in rather small
quantities.

It's performance was more than adaquet and significantly better than
any British 4 engined bomber though not up to the standards of the
turbo supercharged and pressurised B29. (A Heinkel He 274 did fly)
Being Germanies first heavy bomber it would be expected to have
teething problems especialy as it was produced in quantities of only
1200 of which the final A5 model made up 860.

It was produced 4 major series from He 177 A1 through to He 177 A5.
(no pressurised A4) The final versions achieved a considerable
improvement in reliabillity and performance. The first version earned
the nickname "Reich Fuerzeuge" (Empire Cigarett Lighter) because the
coupled engines cooling issues gave them a propensity to burn. Goering
said that it was retired because of its prodigious use of fuel. When
you have trouble putting up Me 109s and Fw 190s on 90 minute missions
you don't put resources into a machine with 6 flight crew and 4 really
big engines, a 15 ton fuel load. Designes for a 4 engined versions
known as the He 177B were ready (and flown as the He 274) powered by
conventionaly distributed engines. (BMW 801 or Junkers Jumo 211).

It should be known that the Lancaster was developed from the
Manchester by a similar process when the RR Vulture was stressed
beyond its capacity to keep the overweight Machester flyable.


It would not have been capable of carrying a
first generation nuclear device and escaping the blast

Release from 20,000 ft would seem more than adaquete especialy if it
was a 10 kiloton instead of 20 kilotosn blast. However the usual
answer is to retard the bomb with some kind of parachute.




Keith




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Thats NOT what Dr Zippe says, he states he was released
in 1956 after the first prototype centrifuge ran successfully.
Of course the Germans hadnt the sense to let Dr Zippe work
on enrichment during the war, he was working on aircraft
propellor design for the Luftwaff


Excellent,you are slowly understanding the magnitute and success of German
deception during WWII.
Dr.Zippe was the foremost GUZ designer of third Reich but even NKVD did not
notice that NKVD was only too lucky that an another German POW recognized him
and informed NKVD.
Zippes association with Luftwaffe was only a cover in reality he was associated
with Degussa company.
You see seemingly unharmful and friendly German Post Office actually develops
nuclear weapons,a luftwaffe employee actually works for centrifuge builder.
Germans were masters in deception and this one of the reasons why we still do
not much about German scientific achievements during 1933-1945

suggest you read his story its more interesting
than your fantasies. Better still listen to the interview he gave
to the BBC. He makes it clear that the design they built
for the Russians had NO resemblance to anything built by the

He says what politically correct is,like von Ardenne.
In reality both designs are almost identical because both were designed by the
same prtson Dr.Zippe.

Dateline set by soviet leadership for the start GUZ based Uran production was
April 1 1948,and Zippe team was able to start producing Uran on March 21.
If they failed you could not see any soviet centrifuge in 50 or 60s,because
Soviet Union was decided not to consider GUZ based Uran production in case of
dateline failure.

stage. Given how long
it took to make the A-4 operational they'd be lucky to
have one operational in 6 to 8 YEARS

I am pretty sure if they had 6-8 months more time, Eisenhowers apocalyptic
predictions would become a reality ,Newyorkers and Washigtonians would the
first ones who learned the truth.

"Eunometic" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

There was no radiation shielding either. Achieving criticallity
would have killed the researchers and likely caused a nasty
nuclear accident as the reaction vessel boiled dry

The 'reactor' was sunk in a pit in the ground, lined with thick
concret and graphite and submerged in heavy water. The Uranium cubes
were lowered slowly via a hoist and observed via remote
instrumentation from a great distance. The reactors was not designed
to opperate for any length of period: merely to establish criticallity
parameters. An increase in neutron population indicating criticality
would have immediatly led to termination of the procedure by withdrawl
of the fuel assembly or draining of the moderating heavy water.


The problem is that before this could happen the operating
chamber would have been flooded with fast neutrons.
Those physicists who examined the reactor were horrified
that anyone would build a reactor without control rods
or adequate shielding




In some areas they were ahead. They worked in the direction of using
ultra high speed electronically switched centrifuges to stratify
uranium hexaflouride gas to enrich unranium and managed to make a few
milligrans of uranium at 5% or so. This was on only a single
centrifuge and a multilevel array would have been required.

One thet held together for more than a few minutes
would have helped too. Fact is the Germans didnt have
the materials required to resist Uranium Hexafluoride.


Which are the same refractory and corrosion resistent metals required
to make jet engines.


Correct



Centrifuges are a better way to enrich unranium and this has become
the modern method. It was in fact perfected by ex German researchers
in the Soviet Union and then when they were realeased in the West.


Not quite. The first soviet centrifuge pilot enrichment plant was
run at Sverlovsk-44 in 1957 but it didnt produce significant
amounts of enriched material until 1964. Prior to that the USSR
used gaseous diffusion enrichment.

At the same time parallel developments were going
on in Germany, the Netherlands and Britain. The
first centrifuge in the UK was assembled in the 60's
These companies joined together to form Urenco

The allied approach of breeding plutonium or building massive gaseous
diffusion plants to enrich natural unranium are not required to make
an atomic bomb.


Plutonium is however the most likely unless you have
large stocks of Uranium

AFAIK see you need 12kg of U235. With a proportion of 0.7% that means
each weapon requires about 100%/0.7% x 12 = about 1680kg or raw
uranium. Say 2.5 tons. Assuming the Germans needed more we are
left with a need for maybe 5 tons per bomb. Say 3 test devices and 1
attack unit and 2 backups. A total requirement of about 15 tons.
(less than a 1 meter square cube of uneriched uranium).


You are assuming 100% efficiency, this is not attainable even now.
In fact refining the tailings of the old 50's enrichment plants is
a major source of enriched uranium


One of the great 'frauds' that was used to justify WMD claims against
the Regime of Saddam Hussein related to the use of lightweight high
strength aluminium tubeing which was supposedly for the fabrication of
these centrifuges but turns out to have been for "Katuysha (little
Kate) unguided bombardment weapons.


Indeed. we found out after the 1991 war that Iraq was using
gaseous enrichment.

Because centrifuges require excellence in engineering.


Quite so

Iraq wasn't 'using gaseous diffusion' as much as toying around with
experiments.


No they had enriched considerable quantities of Uranium

It is a measure of Germany's technical capacities that Iraq was barely
able to reproduce Germany's technolgy in rocketry and uranium 50 years
later.


Germany never managed to enrich more than a few grams
of Uranium


The Germans must have been reasonably sure of success eventualy as
they set aside a Heinkel He 177 Grief to deliver such a bomb.

The Heinkel Grief was a rather unsuccesful aircraft that was only
set aside in the sense that it was produced in rather small
quantities.

It's performance was more than adaquet and significantly better than
any British 4 engined bomber though not up to the standards of the
turbo supercharged and pressurised B29.

It was a little faster than the Lancaster but had a much smaller
internal bombload. Once you start hanging external stores
that speed advantage is gone.

Lancaster
Weight: Empty 36,900 lbs, Maximum Takeoff 68,000 lbs.
Wingspan: 102 ft 0 in.
Length 69 ft 6 in.
Height: 20 ft 0 in.
Performance:
Maximum Speed at 12,000 ft: 287 mph
Service Ceiling: 24,500 ft
Range with 14,000 pound load: 1,660 miles

He-177
Empty: 37,038lb. (16,800 kg)
Loaded: 68,343lb (31,000kg)

Performance:
Maximum (at 41,000lb.): 295mph (472km/h)
Service Ceiling: 26,500 ft (7080m)
Range with Fritz or Hs 293 missle: 3,107 miles

(A Heinkel He 274 did fly)
Being Germanies first heavy bomber it would be expected to have
teething problems especialy as it was produced in quantities of only
1200 of which the final A5 model made up 860.


Indeed , compare and contrast with the 7000 Lancasters and
6,000 Halifax's built



It was produced 4 major series from He 177 A1 through to He 177 A5.
(no pressurised A4) The final versions achieved a considerable
improvement in reliabillity and performance. The first version earned
the nickname "Reich Fuerzeuge" (Empire Cigarett Lighter) because the
coupled engines cooling issues gave them a propensity to burn. Goering
said that it was retired because of its prodigious use of fuel. When
you have trouble putting up Me 109s and Fw 190s on 90 minute missions
you don't put resources into a machine with 6 flight crew and 4 really
big engines, a 15 ton fuel load. Designes for a 4 engined versions
known as the He 177B were ready (and flown as the He 274) powered by
conventionaly distributed engines. (BMW 801 or Junkers Jumo 211).

It should be known that the Lancaster was developed from the
Manchester by a similar process when the RR Vulture was stressed
beyond its capacity to keep the overweight Machester flyable.


The Vulture was a failure pure and simple, the difference was
that the British air ministry didnt insist it be used anyway



It would not have been capable of carrying a
first generation nuclear device and escaping the blast

Release from 20,000 ft would seem more than adaquete especialy if it
was a 10 kiloton instead of 20 kilotosn blast. However the usual
answer is to retard the bomb with some kind of parachute.


A 4.5 ton device needs a rather large parachute

Keith

Germany never managed to enrich more than a few grams
of Uranium


Over 500 kgs enriched Uran found in U-234 produced by outer space aliens
masquerading as Germans ?

Not quite. The first soviet centrifuge pilot enrichment plant was
run at Sverlovsk-44 in 1957 but it didnt produce significant
amounts of enriched material

Actually Mr.Willshaw,Deadline set by soviet leadership for Uran pilot
production was as I said before April 1,1948,and in case of failure to meet the
deadline whole centrifuge development project would be scrapped for good.
There were actually two competing centrifuge designs one Dr.Zippes design other
Dr.Steudels design.
Both designs succesfuly started producing Uran on March 21 and so Soviet
centrifuge development project was saved.

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
Germany never managed to enrich more than a few grams
of Uranium


Over 500 kgs enriched Uran found in U-234 produced by outer space aliens
masquerading as Germans ?


500kgs of unenriched yellowcake, 500kgs of wepons grade
uranium packed as described would produce a prompt
criticallity event.

Not quite. The first soviet centrifuge pilot enrichment plant was
run at Sverlovsk-44 in 1957 but it didnt produce significant
amounts of enriched material

Actually Mr.Willshaw,Deadline set by soviet leadership for Uran pilot
production was as I said before April 1,1948,and in case of failure to
meet the
deadline whole centrifuge development project would be scrapped for good.
There were actually two competing centrifuge designs one Dr.Zippes design
other
Dr.Steudels design.
Both designs succesfuly started producing Uran on March 21 and so Soviet
centrifuge development project was saved.



The gentlemen concerned disagree , I prefer their version to yours.

Keith




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500kgs of unenriched yellowcake, 500kgs of wepons grade
uranium packed as described would produce a prompt
criticallity event.


Not if they loaded the way they they loaded U-234.
Alone the way how they were packed and transported proves that the cargo of
U-234 was not yellow cake.

The gentlemen concerned disagree , I prefer their version to yours.

I know this gentleman (in person).period.

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"B2431" wrote in message
...
From: "Keith Willshaw"


Denyev has pulled this gag before. If you ask him to prove it he can't so
he
just repeats the same lies.

Want a real laugh ask him about the two atomic bombs the Nazis tested and
how
the U.S. couldn't have built atomic bombs without using Nazi parts and
weapons
grade uranium. Apparently the Manhatten Project produced no workable
designs
and no weapons grade uranium. To prove Nazi parts were used he will
present you
with a photograph of Fat Man with German markings only he can see never
mind
the Nazis produced no plutonium.


I've been through all this with him in excruciating detail.
His usual response is that the proof is in documents
so sekrit nobody has ever actually seen them.

Then he retreats into his Hans Kammler did it in Joanastal
fantasy. This involves Nazi UFO's with antigravity engines
armed with nuclear weapons. They must have been real duffers
to let us mere mortals beat them with nothing more than P-51's, Spitfires,
B-17's and Lancasters

Keith


Keith


Ummm...the use of pretexts as justifications for war is hardly a
conspiracy theory - it is standard practice. The accidental sinking of
the USS Maine, the sinking of the Lusitania, the provocation of the
Mexicans by Taylor...all of these are well documented historical
facts.

WHy, the National Security Archives just last week released recently
declassifed documents which prove (again) that the Gulf of Tonkin
incident (attack on the Maddox) was a manufactured pretext.

This sort of thing is standard practice the world over.








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