A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Owning
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

cylinder replacement



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old February 14th 06, 07:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default cylinder replacement

Hi,

I've owned my airplane, a '69 piper Cherokee, for about 5 years now, and
it's finally time that one "annual from hell" that happens to everyone at
some point or another to hit. The engine is a lycoming O-360 and currently
has around 850 SMOH. It's been overhauled once in it's lifetime.

It started with some aluminum shavings which led us to suspect bad piston
pin plugs. My A&P pulled the cylinders, found that the piston pin plugs
were indeed bad, and sent the cylinders to a cylinder shop for evaluation.

Unfortunately, the shop has found that one cylinder had a cracked exhaust
port and is unservicable. It needs to be replaced. I'm still waiting to
hear on the other three, but at minimum they need to be rechromed and
possibly some repair work as well.

My A&P says that the lower half of the engine is in excellent condition,
so there is no need for a full overhaul.

This leaves me with three options:

A) Replace all four cylinders with new at a cost of $1500 each. Times four
that is $6000.

B) Replace all four cylinders with "used" (reconditioned?) at a cost of
$900 each. Total of $3700.

C) Replace only the bad one and get the three remaining good ones
rechromed and/or repaired. I don't know what the rechroming/repair fee
will be on the other three yet, so that option is unknown. I'm supposed to
hear back from the shop by tomorrow with an estimate.

Of course, added to these costs are whatever labor and parts my A&P has
accumulated during the annual, the labor to put the replacement cylinders
back on, torque everything down, etc. Generally the rest of the annual
went very well (which is the sole bit of good news).

Anyway, my question to the other airplane owners out there -- which of the
three options A, B, or C would you choose? In generally, my philosophy has
been to avoid using "used" parts when at all possible, but of course these
are very expensive parts. Unfortunately I have no budget saved up for
this, so cost is a major factor to me.

I'm probably looking at owning the airplane for another 400-500 hours
maximum. Thus when I go to sell, the ad would read something like "1250
SMOH 400 STOH". Is the top-overhaul a selling point? Is the buyer going to
care significantly whether I use new cylinders or used/reconditioned?

Thanks!

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted using Android Newsgroup Downloader:
.... http://www.sb-software.com/android
-----------------------------------------------------------
  #3  
Old February 14th 06, 08:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default cylinder replacement

In researching a crash of a Cessna 414, I found the following just this
morning. The crash was in 2001, and the full NTSB narrative written in
2003. I found the information below very interesting as we have 3 ECi
cylinders on our Aztec.

Maybe we should think more about the heads than the cylinders.

YMMV

Jim



Excerpt from NTSB narrative:

"Lycoming makes use of only new cylinder heads and new barrels in all of its
cylinder assemblies, which are ultimately used on their factory new engines,
engine overhauls, and rebuilt engines. Lycoming does not repair any
component of its cylinder assemblies. Teledyne Continental makes use of only
new cylinder heads and new barrels in its manufacture of new and rebuilt
engines.

ECi received FAA STC (SE4408SW) approval for the repair of 38 different
Lycoming engine cylinder assemblies ranging from 320-720 series engines. The
STC authorizes ECi to repair cylinder assemblies by removing and reusing
used cylinder heads onto new ECi barrels, regardless of the cylinder head's
time in service or number of times that it had been reassembled onto a
cylinder head.

The "serviceable" yellow tags for all the cylinders from the left engine do
not make any reference that the assembly is an STC. The only regulatory
reference provided on these tags was listed as:

"Item Has been repaired by FAA approved process as follows:"

Replacement parts per FAA approved applications listing"

For product definition Refer to ECI's FAA approved Class Reference Manual."

A cylinder assembly consists of two main components, the aluminum alloy head
and the steel alloy barrel, which according to assembly procedures provided
by the FAA, are screwed together while the head is at an elevated
temperature in the vicinity of 600 ºF.


  #4  
Old February 14th 06, 09:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default cylinder replacement


"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...
In researching a crash of a Cessna 414, I found the following just this
morning. The crash was in 2001, and the full NTSB narrative written in
2003. I found the information below very interesting as we have 3 ECi
cylinders on our Aztec.

Maybe we should think more about the heads than the cylinders.

YMMV

Jim



Excerpt from NTSB narrative:

"Lycoming makes use of only new cylinder heads and new barrels in all of
its
cylinder assemblies, which are ultimately used on their factory new
engines,
engine overhauls, and rebuilt engines. Lycoming does not repair any
component of its cylinder assemblies. Teledyne Continental makes use of
only
new cylinder heads and new barrels in its manufacture of new and rebuilt
engines.

ECi received FAA STC (SE4408SW) approval for the repair of 38 different
Lycoming engine cylinder assemblies ranging from 320-720 series engines.
The
STC authorizes ECi to repair cylinder assemblies by removing and reusing
used cylinder heads onto new ECi barrels, regardless of the cylinder
head's
time in service or number of times that it had been reassembled onto a
cylinder head.

The "serviceable" yellow tags for all the cylinders from the left engine
do
not make any reference that the assembly is an STC. The only regulatory
reference provided on these tags was listed as:

"Item Has been repaired by FAA approved process as follows:"

Replacement parts per FAA approved applications listing"

For product definition Refer to ECI's FAA approved Class Reference
Manual."

A cylinder assembly consists of two main components, the aluminum alloy
head
and the steel alloy barrel, which according to assembly procedures
provided
by the FAA, are screwed together while the head is at an elevated
temperature in the vicinity of 600 ºF.

That does not mean NEW ECi cylinders have used heads. WWW.ECI2Fly.com You
are comparing apples to oranges.

Allen


  #6  
Old February 14th 06, 09:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default cylinder replacement

"Allen" wrote in message
That does not mean NEW ECi cylinders have used heads. WWW.ECI2Fly.com

You
are comparing apples to oranges.

Allen


Completely correct. I was not intending to compare a used cylinder to a new
cylinder. Nor did I say that. It may not have been evident from the
excerpt that I quoted, but the engine failure was due to cylinder head
fatigue. What I gathered from this is that you should be aware that, unless
you buy new cylinders, you may be buying a new barrel and a used head
because some companies mate used heads to new barrels and market them under
STCs as cylinder replacements. The other point being that the FAA doesn't
limit the hours on a head that can be mated to a new barrel.

Jim


  #8  
Old February 14th 06, 10:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default cylinder replacement

Ah ha.. I missed that point.

Please ignore my previous post. I know nothing about O-360 upgrades.


"xyzzy" wrote in message
ups.com...


did they make 150hp O-360's?




  #9  
Old February 14th 06, 10:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default cylinder replacement


"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...
"Allen" wrote in message
That does not mean NEW ECi cylinders have used heads. WWW.ECI2Fly.com

You
are comparing apples to oranges.

Allen


Completely correct. I was not intending to compare a used cylinder to a
new
cylinder. Nor did I say that. It may not have been evident from the
excerpt that I quoted, but the engine failure was due to cylinder head
fatigue. What I gathered from this is that you should be aware that,
unless
you buy new cylinders, you may be buying a new barrel and a used head
because some companies mate used heads to new barrels and market them
under
STCs as cylinder replacements. The other point being that the FAA doesn't
limit the hours on a head that can be mated to a new barrel.

Jim

That's true. They also do not limit the hours that can be on a crankshaft
or crankcase, or the number of times it has been overhauled. You can get a
NEW or REBUILT engine from TCM with a .010 under crankshaft and is still
considered within NEW limits.

Allen


  #10  
Old February 15th 06, 03:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default cylinder replacement

If you REALLY plan on offing the bird in 400-500 hours, you may get away
with overhauls. But, if I were on the "receiving" (buying) end, I would
give you zip for overhauled cylinders and consider the engine a runout.

My bird got .010 oversized "first run" overhauls 800 hours ago from a
"big name" shop. I am about to replace the THIRD cylinder. How much did
I save??? (answer: nothing).

Some say they get good service from overhauls. Other say they are junk.

I don't understand how you get from approx $3700 to $7000 on a set of
Superiors.

Your wrench may charge you 20 hours for the swap. Even at $100/hour you
should not break $6k total.

Keep asking questions.

Good Luck,
Mike


This leaves me with three options:

A) Replace all four cylinders with new at a cost of $1500 each. Times four
that is $6000.

B) Replace all four cylinders with "used" (reconditioned?) at a cost of
$900 each. Total of $3700.

C) Replace only the bad one and get the three remaining good ones
rechromed and/or repaired. I don't know what the rechroming/repair fee
will be on the other three yet, so that option is unknown. I'm supposed to
hear back from the shop by tomorrow with an estimate.

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bad cylinder Denny Owning 17 September 12th 05 06:04 PM
Path of an airplane in a 1G roll Chris W Piloting 47 July 4th 05 10:53 PM
Path of an airplane in a 1G roll Chris W Aerobatics 20 June 29th 05 09:35 AM
Path of an airplane in a 1G roll Chris W Home Built 22 June 29th 05 09:35 AM
Start Anywhere Cylinder (SSA rules proposal) Mark Navarre Soaring 15 September 25th 03 01:13 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.