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  #33  
Old February 1st 07, 04:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
David Lesher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 224
Default UPDATE Starter question

A Lieberma writes:

David Lesher wrote in news:epoqih$kks$1
:


The "no crank" you experienced means insufficient voltage at the
starter innards. Its cause could be: discharged/bad battery [low
source voltage] or bad connections -- be they at the battery terminals,
the starter cables, the solenoid, or inside the starter.


One thing for sure David,


New battery, I am sure my A&P cleaned the battery connections and I am
pretty sure he would have inspected the connections so that will be ruling
out any further issues should I have any.


Then further troubleshooting is needed. Another poster suggested that
contactors may be the culprit. It's a good suspect.

(There are two basic approaches to troubleshooting. One is to
methodically go step by step, testing as you go...until you find
the anomaly. The other is jumping to a specific villain, and testing
it first.

An expert is the guy who knows how to balance these two. He may try
the second, and then go back to the first when stuck.)



--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
  #34  
Old February 1st 07, 05:28 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
A Lieberma
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default UPDATE Starter question

David Lesher wrote in
:

(There are two basic approaches to troubleshooting. One is to
methodically go step by step, testing as you go...until you find
the anomaly. The other is jumping to a specific villain, and testing
it first.

An expert is the guy who knows how to balance these two. He may try
the second, and then go back to the first when stuck.)


Manowar do I agree with the second paragraph 'specially when it's
electrical in nature and intermittent.

I flew today, no problems whatsoever noted. Not so say a problem doesn't
exist, but engine ran smooth, started on one swing of the prop.

Couldn't even go to the practice area, but that wasn't a mechanical issue,
icing at 2000 feet was the problem.

Allen
  #35  
Old February 1st 07, 04:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,130
Default UPDATE Starter question

On Jan 31, 6:53 pm, john smith wrote:
In article .com,

wrote:
Any contactor has a coil, the starter has several coils, and
the alternator has a field coil. All coils create a sharp voltage
spike when the current is cut off. Switching the master off, the
alternator off, or releasing the start switch all create that spike
(I've measured the master contactor's spike at 600 volts) and those
expensive radios aren't all built to put up with it, especially
considering that the spike creates an electron flow in the wrong
direction through the bus. That's why many aircraft have an avionics
master switch (that has no coil involved). The rest should have the
radios shut off before shutdown.


Coils (inductors) are current storage devices.
Capacitors are voltage storage devices.


As if current and voltage were independent of each other?
The coil will produce a surge of current, which has a specific
pressure that we call voltage. You can't have current flow without
voltage; any flow (amperage) requires pressure (voltage) to drive it.
Just like water in a hose.
The magneto produces a pressure upward of 20,000 volts. It
does this using a pair of coils and a switch (points). Your
automobile's ignition system probably produces 40,000 volts, again
using paired coils. Both of those systems have a primary coil that
produces the current surge (which has a voltage spike) when its
current flow is interrupted, and the collapsing magnetic field
produces the huge spike in the secondary coil for use at the spark
plug.
The argument re current vs. voltage is a little like
Bernoulli's vs. Newton's theories of lift. They're both right, but
they address different aspects of the phenomenon.

Dan


  #36  
Old February 1st 07, 04:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
Tauno Voipio
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 64
Default UPDATE Starter question

wrote:
On Jan 31, 6:53 pm, john smith wrote:

In article .com,

wrote:

Coils (inductors) are current storage devices.
Capacitors are voltage storage devices.



As if current and voltage were independent of each other?
The coil will produce a surge of current, which has a specific
pressure that we call voltage. You can't have current flow without
voltage; any flow (amperage) requires pressure (voltage) to drive it.
Just like water in a hose.


It seems that you need some basic physics repeat training.

The quote above about storage is correct for capacitances
and inductances.

An inductance converts current changes into voltage changes
in such a way that it opposes the original current changes,
that is, an inductance smoothes current flow at the expense
of voltage changes.

A capacitance converts voltage changes into current changes
in such a way that it opposes the original voltage change,
that is, a capacitance smoothes a voltage at the expense
of current changes.

The magneto produces a pressure upward of 20,000 volts. It
does this using a pair of coils and a switch (points). Your
automobile's ignition system probably produces 40,000 volts, again
using paired coils. Both of those systems have a primary coil that
produces the current surge (which has a voltage spike) when its
current flow is interrupted, and the collapsing magnetic field
produces the huge spike in the secondary coil for use at the spark
plug.


The voltage from a magneto (or a simple spark coil) comes from
two sources:

- the abrupt break of the current in the primary winding of
the coil. It creates a voltage spike to (in vain) keep the
current smooth.

- the transformation ratio of the primary to the secondary
winding in the coil.

A magneto works in the same way as a spark coil, but the initial
current is created by a generator action of the moving magnet.


The argument re current vs. voltage is a little like
Bernoulli's vs. Newton's theories of lift. They're both right, but
they address different aspects of the phenomenon.


Right, but they are independent as long as the circuit
impedance is not specified. It is the thing that ties
current and voltage together.

--

Tauno Voipio (MSEE, avionics engineer)
tauno voipio (at) iki fi
'
  #37  
Old February 1st 07, 05:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,130
Default UPDATE Starter question

On Feb 1, 8:55 am, Tauno Voipio wrote:
wrote:
On Jan 31, 6:53 pm, john smith wrote:


In article .com,


wrote:


Coils (inductors) are current storage devices.
Capacitors are voltage storage devices.


As if current and voltage were independent of each other?
The coil will produce a surge of current, which has a specific
pressure that we call voltage. You can't have current flow without
voltage; any flow (amperage) requires pressure (voltage) to drive it.
Just like water in a hose.


It seems that you need some basic physics repeat training.

The quote above about storage is correct for capacitances
and inductances.

An inductance converts current changes into voltage changes
in such a way that it opposes the original current changes,
that is, an inductance smoothes current flow at the expense
of voltage changes.

A capacitance converts voltage changes into current changes
in such a way that it opposes the original voltage change,
that is, a capacitance smoothes a voltage at the expense
of current changes.

The magneto produces a pressure upward of 20,000 volts. It
does this using a pair of coils and a switch (points). Your
automobile's ignition system probably produces 40,000 volts, again
using paired coils. Both of those systems have a primary coil that
produces the current surge (which has a voltage spike) when its
current flow is interrupted, and the collapsing magnetic field
produces the huge spike in the secondary coil for use at the spark
plug.


The voltage from a magneto (or a simple spark coil) comes from
two sources:

- the abrupt break of the current in the primary winding of
the coil. It creates a voltage spike to (in vain) keep the
current smooth.

- the transformation ratio of the primary to the secondary
winding in the coil.

A magneto works in the same way as a spark coil, but the initial
current is created by a generator action of the moving magnet.



So tell me where I was wrong.

Dan

  #38  
Old February 1st 07, 06:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
Tauno Voipio
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 64
Default UPDATE Starter question

wrote:
On Feb 1, 8:55 am, Tauno Voipio wrote:

wrote:

On Jan 31, 6:53 pm, john smith wrote:


In article .com,


wrote:


Coils (inductors) are current storage devices.
Capacitors are voltage storage devices.


As if current and voltage were independent of each other?
The coil will produce a surge of current, which has a specific
pressure that we call voltage. You can't have current flow without
voltage; any flow (amperage) requires pressure (voltage) to drive it.
Just like water in a hose.


It seems that you need some basic physics repeat training.

The quote above about storage is correct for capacitances
and inductances.

An inductance converts current changes into voltage changes
in such a way that it opposes the original current changes,
that is, an inductance smoothes current flow at the expense
of voltage changes.

A capacitance converts voltage changes into current changes
in such a way that it opposes the original voltage change,
that is, a capacitance smoothes a voltage at the expense
of current changes.


The magneto produces a pressure upward of 20,000 volts. It
does this using a pair of coils and a switch (points). Your
automobile's ignition system probably produces 40,000 volts, again
using paired coils. Both of those systems have a primary coil that
produces the current surge (which has a voltage spike) when its
current flow is interrupted, and the collapsing magnetic field
produces the huge spike in the secondary coil for use at the spark
plug.


The voltage from a magneto (or a simple spark coil) comes from
two sources:

- the abrupt break of the current in the primary winding of
the coil. It creates a voltage spike to (in vain) keep the
current smooth.

- the transformation ratio of the primary to the secondary
winding in the coil.

A magneto works in the same way as a spark coil, but the initial
current is created by a generator action of the moving magnet.




So tell me where I was wrong.

Dan


He

--- quote ---

As if current and voltage were independent of each other?


-- end quote --

They are - the circuit impedance ties them together.

--- quote ---

The coil will produce a surge of current, which has a specific
pressure that we call voltage.


-- end quote --

The coil *suppresses* surges of *current* by producing surges
of voltage. Here, the coil is the impedance creating the relation
of voltage and current.

--- quote ---

You can't have current flow without
voltage; any flow (amperage) requires pressure (voltage) to drive it.
Just like water in a hose.


-- end quote --

There are weird things called superconductors, where this
does not apply - in normal conductors, the conductor resistance
is the impedance tying voltage and current together.

--

Tauno Voipio
tauno voipio (at) iki fi
  #39  
Old February 3rd 07, 05:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
David Lesher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 224
Default Starter question



: Get a voltmeter and use the troubleshooting procedure outlined here...
:
: http://www.skytecair.com/images/Troubleshooting
: %20Diagram_5.0.pdf

The URL is mangled, but

http://www.skytecair.com/Troubleshooting.htm

gets you there. That's an excellent guide. Note they talk in
#3 about measuring the difference between two terminals
***while under load.****

When not loaded, all will look fine...


I'll add a few things.

a) Watch out for the prop.

b) In the steps showing you measuring at a terminal; there are THREE
places to measu

1) The terminal bolt
2) The lug
3) The wire itself

Assuming they are one & the same is a bad idea. If the lug-bolt
connection is dirty, 1&2 will be different voltages UNDER LOAD. If
the lug is not well-connected to the wire.... That's especially an
issue with aluminum wire...

Do not forget the grounds!! The battery ground, the engine-frame
ground.... all those matter..

You can also diagnose bad starter connections another way -- feel.
After the slow/failed crank, carefully feel each connection mentioned.
The bad one will be hot, and may be HOT. The advantage to this is
it is done after cranking, not while.
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
 




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