New Iraqi Airborne Strike Capability Spotted

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 23:00:11 GMT,
(Richard Casady) wrote:

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:50:29 -0400, Peter Skelton
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
wrote:


Thanks Jack and Dumpst. That link worked. I don't believe it can
carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. I worked on
several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
beds. Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
re. OV-10. I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
several times from the Bronco. He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
to-butts facing aft. The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
they'd all slide out the back. Crazy...

If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
soldiers are not going to fit.

3500/12 = 291.7 lbs each. I weigh 130. You ask me to carry 161 lb and
I will report you to your superiors as dangerously nuts. The very
thought makes me glad I joined the Air Force. If you weigh 161 you
won't pack the 130 either. How many do the skydivers shoehorn in?Note
that in 90 years, no army ever found soldiers suitable to carry a 75
lb M2HB machine gun, although there in a tripod mount. They always
travel by truck or helo.


Average soldier in Canada is about 90 kilos, naked and wet.
Americans afre bigger, if anything. Dress them, armour them, arm
them etc. gets to a planning weight of mumble which can't be
far off 125 kilos. In the absence of any squad equipment or
supplies, you might shoe-horn them in for a short flight,
provided you left off any militasry-related flight equipment. I
posted better data, and a URL to more elsewhere.

Peter Skelton

In article 9574a918-2418-4f9b-81f8-3278e64bdaf1
@m74g2000hsh.googlegroups.com, says...
On Oct 20, 3:15*pm, tankfixer wrote:
In article 26adbd0c-f7ef-4048-b9a6-
,
says...



On Oct 19, 8:51*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:
On Oct 19, 8:39*pm, wrote:

On Oct 19, 1:11*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

On Oct 14, 11:27*pm, wrote:

See:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...s/IRAQ101408.x...

I wonder what else it can carry besides Hellfire.

Nice, finally!

No hub-center cannon though

All kidding aside, I wonder if a cannon could be mounted down the
road?

A belly turret like the one on the OV-10D would be nice, then you
could
do normal strafing or just swivel it to the side and orbit the target
like a mini-
AC-130.

That is a capital idea. Then one could orbit and do surveillance and
be able to shoot to the side over a certain area. An Apache turret
might work.... that would be pretty cool.

I wonder what all that passenger space in the back is used for when
it's
flying a COIN mission?

Hmm... multirole stuff for troops or surveillance gear? If they haev
two people on board, one can guide something like a TOW or HOT missile
while the other one flies. Pretty nice.

Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
never figured out.

In the back of an OV-10 ?

Very unlikely.
Maybe a three man team..

Hey, we were not going to argue with a Marine Major who had no neck,
was about 5 foot something, and sounded like he had a throat full of
gravel. And was loud.

Why not ?
I've told LTC they were wrong before..


He was the same guy when we had the check point that Marines had to
like the MC-130H Combat Talon II, we were trying to work out how to
deploy them for a pretty much low speed non stop run over the target
where the wheels barely touch down. He said, let me know when its 30
knots, then you can take off. We'll be out.

We figured Marine Recon were a rare breed, maybe a little nuts, but a
rare breed.

Always did like the Special Ops community. Some more than others, but
the quiet types were the ones you knew were damn good.

Then again anybody who trusts the AF to test fly an airplane in the
dark.....


--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

In article ,
says...
In message , tankfixer
writes
Have you seen the video of a couple of SAS fellows who clung to the stub
wing of a AH64 to perform a rescue ?

Royal Marines from 45 Commando, not SAS. Two Apaches flew four booties
back into Jugroom Fort in Helmand Province, Afghanistan to retrieve a
badly wounded bootneck after an attack was repulsed: unfortunately,
despite the expenditure of many munitions and more courage, Marine Matty
Ford died of his injuries.

My mistake, thanks for the correction.



--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

In article , says...

"tankfixer" wrote in message
...
Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
never figured out.

In the back of an OV-10 ?

Actually, Tinkerbell, there was a version that had the space to do exactly
that. Not a platoon but a few troops. It was a leftover from the A1E
specs.

Did you note below I specified around a three man team ?


Very unlikely.

Actually, it was never done operationally that I know of but the capability
was always there.

Maybe a three man team..

You should see a doctor for that knee jerk problem of your s Daryl.


--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

In message , tankfixer
writes
In article ,
says...
In message , tankfixer
writes
Have you seen the video of a couple of SAS fellows who clung to the stub
wing of a AH64 to perform a rescue ?

Royal Marines from 45 Commando, not SAS. Two Apaches flew four booties
back into Jugroom Fort in Helmand Province, Afghanistan to retrieve a
badly wounded bootneck after an attack was repulsed: unfortunately,
despite the expenditure of many munitions and more courage, Marine Matty
Ford died of his injuries.

My mistake, thanks for the correction.

"No harm, no foul" seems to fit nicely here. Some seriously brave
*******s did something stupidly courageous and the worst we can complain
about is that some of them were assigned to the wrong unit? (Thermal
cameras don't do beret colours...)

--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides


pauldotjdotadam[at]googlemail{dot}.com

On Oct 20, 4:19*pm, BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 20, 1:01*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:





On Oct 20, 1:55*pm, frank wrote:

On Oct 19, 8:51*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

On Oct 19, 8:39*pm, wrote:

On Oct 19, 1:11*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

On Oct 14, 11:27*pm, wrote:

See:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...s/IRAQ101408.x...

I wonder what else it can carry besides Hellfire.

Nice, finally!

No hub-center cannon though

All kidding aside, I wonder if a cannon could be mounted down the
road?

A belly turret like the one on the OV-10D would be nice, then you
could
do normal strafing or just swivel it to the side and orbit the target
like a mini-
AC-130.

That is a capital idea. Then one could orbit and do surveillance and
be able to shoot to the side over a certain area. An Apache turret
might work.... that would be pretty cool.

I wonder what all that passenger space in the back is used for when
it's
flying a COIN mission?

Hmm... multirole stuff for troops or surveillance gear? If they haev
two people on board, one can guide something like a TOW or HOT missile
while the other one flies. Pretty nice.

Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
never figured out.

Sounds like a Clown Car but a pretty low cost way to do a platoon jump
if they could pull it off. Might be OK for low level runs getting in
past coverage, wonder how small a radar target it is when it gets up
in some altitude? Like that German guy who landed in Red Square in the
80s.

I keep getting an error trying to load the page. *Can anyone describe
what you are talking about?

A large single engine prop plane, looks like in civilian colors it
would fit at most small airports, painted in drab and apparently
capable of carrying and launching hellfire missiles.

BB

In article ,
says...
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:59:09 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
wrote:

On Oct 20, 4:50*pm, Peter Skelton wrote:
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard

wrote:

Thanks Jack and Dumpst. *That link worked. *I don't believe it can
carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. *I worked on
several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
beds. *Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
re. OV-10. *I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
several times from the Bronco. *He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
to-butts facing aft. *The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
they'd all slide out the back. *Crazy...

If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
soldiers are not going to fit.

Peter Skelton

specs for the Grand Caravan Super Cargomaster, listed at 14 passengers
plus two crew. Something like 3700-3800 pounds of cargo/people

Weights:
Empty Weight
1,746kg
Maximum Take-Off Weight
3,629kg
Maximum Load
1,900kg
Fuel Capacity
1,267l
Ramp Weight (Grand Caravan, Super Cargomaster)
3,985kg


http://www.aerospace-technology.com/...van/specs.html
http://www.aerospace-technology.com/...van/specs.html

Interesting. The Cessna website gives the maximum useful load
number I gave above. The Brochure downloadable from the site
gives 1862 kg. It also shows that, for a range of 100 nm, the
maximum payload, exclusive of 170 lb pilot and 45 min fuel
reserve is 1588 kg. to get 300 nm it's down to 1361 kg.

http://www.cessna.com/MungoBlobs/746...n_Brochure.pdf

12 kitted soldiers is too much weight.


The MC-5 and MP-360 canopies used by the Marine Corps
Force Recon troops can easily handle 400 pounds. They
have been tested at weights up to 700 pounds. I don't
think they regularly jump anywhere near that weight, but
400 pounds divided between the Marine and his separately-
suspended duffel is probably not uncommon.

http://atairaerospace.com/onyx/ul/

(been there, wrote the software, but DIDN'T jump out
of the airplane----I'm a 62-year old ex-squid, after
all!)


Mark Borgerson

In article
,
"David E. Powell" wrote:

On Oct 20, 4:19*pm, BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 20, 1:01*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:





On Oct 20, 1:55*pm, frank wrote:

On Oct 19, 8:51*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

On Oct 19, 8:39*pm, wrote:

On Oct 19, 1:11*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

On Oct 14, 11:27*pm, wrote:

See:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...=news/IRAQ1014
08.x...

I wonder what else it can carry besides Hellfire.

Nice, finally!

No hub-center cannon though

All kidding aside, I wonder if a cannon could be mounted down the
road?

A belly turret like the one on the OV-10D would be nice, then you
could
do normal strafing or just swivel it to the side and orbit the
target
like a mini-
AC-130.

That is a capital idea. Then one could orbit and do surveillance and
be able to shoot to the side over a certain area. An Apache turret
might work.... that would be pretty cool.

I wonder what all that passenger space in the back is used for when
it's
flying a COIN mission?

Hmm... multirole stuff for troops or surveillance gear? If they haev
two people on board, one can guide something like a TOW or HOT
missile
while the other one flies. Pretty nice.

Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
never figured out.

Sounds like a Clown Car but a pretty low cost way to do a platoon jump
if they could pull it off. Might be OK for low level runs getting in
past coverage, wonder how small a radar target it is when it gets up
in some altitude? Like that German guy who landed in Red Square in the
80s.

I keep getting an error trying to load the page. *Can anyone describe
what you are talking about?

A large single engine prop plane, looks like in civilian colors it
would fit at most small airports, painted in drab and apparently
capable of carrying and launching hellfire missiles.

Something like a Cessna Caravan? Of which the Iraqi AF is taking
delivery:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-air-force-035
78/

On Oct 20, 9:59*pm, Mark Borgerson wrote:
In article ,
says...



On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:59:09 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
wrote:

On Oct 20, 4:50*pm, Peter Skelton wrote:
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard

wrote:

Thanks Jack and Dumpst. *That link worked. *I don't believe it can
carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. *I worked on
several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
beds. *Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
re. OV-10. *I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
several times from the Bronco. *He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
to-butts facing aft. *The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
they'd all slide out the back. *Crazy...

If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
soldiers are not going to fit.

Peter Skelton

specs for the Grand Caravan Super Cargomaster, listed at 14 passengers
plus two crew. Something like 3700-3800 pounds of cargo/people

Weights:
Empty Weight
1,746kg
Maximum Take-Off Weight
3,629kg
Maximum Load
1,900kg
Fuel Capacity
1,267l
Ramp Weight (Grand Caravan, Super Cargomaster)
3,985kg

http://www.aerospace-technology.com/...van/specs.html
http://www.aerospace-technology.com/...van/specs.html

Interesting. The Cessna website gives the maximum useful load
number I gave above. The Brochure downloadable from the site
gives 1862 kg. It also shows that, for a range of 100 nm, the
maximum payload, exclusive of 170 lb pilot and 45 min fuel
reserve is 1588 kg. to get 300 nm it's down to 1361 kg.

http://www.cessna.com/MungoBlobs/746...n_Brochure.pdf

12 kitted soldiers is too much weight.

The MC-5 and MP-360 canopies used by the Marine Corps
Force Recon troops can easily handle 400 pounds. *They
have been tested at weights up to 700 pounds. *I don't
think they regularly jump anywhere near that weight, but
400 pounds divided between the Marine and his separately-
suspended duffel is probably not uncommon.

http://atairaerospace.com/onyx/ul/

(been there, wrote the software, but DIDN'T jump out
of the airplane----I'm a 62-year old ex-squid, after
all!)

Mark Borgerson

Test jump site looks like Marana...

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.

On Oct 21, 1:52*am, Steve Hix
wrote:
In article
,
*"David E. Powell" wrote:



On Oct 20, 4:19*pm, BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 20, 1:01*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

On Oct 20, 1:55*pm, frank wrote:

On Oct 19, 8:51*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

On Oct 19, 8:39*pm, wrote:

On Oct 19, 1:11*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

On Oct 14, 11:27*pm, wrote:

See:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...=news/IRAQ1014
08.x...

I wonder what else it can carry besides Hellfire.

Nice, finally!

No hub-center cannon though

All kidding aside, I wonder if a cannon could be mounted down the
road?

A belly turret like the one on the OV-10D would be nice, then you
could
do normal strafing or just swivel it to the side and orbit the
target
like a mini-
AC-130.

That is a capital idea. Then one could orbit and do surveillance and
be able to shoot to the side over a certain area. An Apache turret
might work.... that would be pretty cool.

I wonder what all that passenger space in the back is used for when
it's
flying a COIN mission?

Hmm... multirole stuff for troops or surveillance gear? If they haev
two people on board, one can guide something like a TOW or HOT
missile
while the other one flies. Pretty nice.

Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
never figured out.

Sounds like a Clown Car but a pretty low cost way to do a platoon jump
if they could pull it off. Might be OK for low level runs getting in
past coverage, wonder how small a radar target it is when it gets up
in some altitude? Like that German guy who landed in Red Square in the
80s.

I keep getting an error trying to load the page. *Can anyone describe
what you are talking about?

A large single engine prop plane, looks like in civilian colors it
would fit at most small airports, painted in drab and apparently
capable of carrying and launching hellfire missiles.

Something like a Cessna Caravan? Of which the Iraqi AF is taking
delivery:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...raqi-air-force...
78/

It is the Cessna "Grand" Caravan, bigger badder and cheaper