Glider Pilot arrested for airspace

Sorry, yesterday's post doubled up?
Tom

PS:Here in Oz you cannot sign away your rights.



01:04 13 January 2013, Tom Claffey wrote:
Get another lawyer and sue the *******s.
At the very least the Sheriff needs to be sacked!





t 13:54 11 January 2013, wrote:
I just read the article. Its pretty scary to know that those charged
with
e=
nforcing the laws can be so ignorant of them. An initial
misunderstanding
i=
s forgivable (I guess)but to be locked up overnight is not. I was a cop
for=
25 years and its unbelievable that someone didn't step up and say "Its
ob=
vious this guy is not a terrorist. What are we doing here?" I don't
think
=
I'd be as understanding as the glider pilot and I'd certainly wouldn't
agre=
e to not sue, even if its unlikely I'd ever recover anything. Make 'em
swea=
t, at least. I'd definitely want to know who authorized that charges be
fil=
ed and seek a public apology.

Look under 'Signed under Duress'

Was he Imprissoned?
Was there restraint of his Liberty?
Did the police push the paperwork at him?
Where there threats of personal violence?
Where the policemen armed?
Where they standing over him whilst he was seated?

If the answer is 'Yes' to any of the above, I would say he has a very good
case aganst them. (doubly so it was in the UK.)



At 02:55 13 January 2013, Tom Claffey wrote:

Sorry, yesterday's post doubled up?
Tom

PS:Here in Oz you cannot sign away your rights.



01:04 13 January 2013, Tom Claffey wrote:
Get another lawyer and sue the *******s.
At the very least the Sheriff needs to be sacked!





t 13:54 11 January 2013, wrote:
I just read the article. Its pretty scary to know that those charged
with
e=
nforcing the laws can be so ignorant of them. An initial
misunderstanding
i=
s forgivable (I guess)but to be locked up overnight is not. I was a cop
for=
25 years and its unbelievable that someone didn't step up and say
"Its
ob=
vious this guy is not a terrorist. What are we doing here?" I don't
think
=
I'd be as understanding as the glider pilot and I'd certainly wouldn't
agre=
e to not sue, even if its unlikely I'd ever recover anything. Make 'em
swea=
t, at least. I'd definitely want to know who authorized that charges be
fil=
ed and seek a public apology.

I am a local lawyer and have discussed this matter with several other people who were directly involved.

As a practical matter, I strongly doubt a local jury would have awarded damages based on overzealous protection of a nuclear plant. Also, a local jury might be persuaded to find him guilty of disturbing the peace, which is a pretty vaguely written law. He is a foreign citizen, so even a minor conviction could cause problems if he leaves the country and tries to return to the US, which has become his home. In that case, it is not necessarily bad advice to have him give up his right to sue in exchange for a nolle prosequi..

Also, before I started flying gliders, I had never seen one in the air, and I am well-educated, observant and interested in aviation. Most people would not know what it was at all. Nuclear security personnel have presumably been warned to watch for drone/RC aircraft threats. Also, there is a blanket TFR as mentioned previously which specifically mentions circling near nuclear facilities. I know there is an exception for glider pilots, but only glider pilots or security experts would know about that.

All local law enforcement would know is that some crazy looking flying machine, which was clearly not a regular airplane, flew over the nuclear plant and then started circling nearby.

I hate that this happened, especially to Robin, who is a wonderful person. But I think the best possible outcome - education of the public and of relevant security officials - is happening on a much larger scale than I had anticipated, through the interest of the press.

On Sunday, January 13, 2013 10:54:49 AM UTC-5, James Lee wrote:
I am a local lawyer and have discussed this matter with several other people who were directly involved. As a practical matter, I strongly doubt a local jury would have awarded damages based on overzealous protection of a nuclear plant. Also, a local jury might be persuaded to find him guilty of disturbing the peace, which is a pretty vaguely written law. He is a foreign citizen, so even a minor conviction could cause problems if he leaves the country and tries to return to the US, which has become his home. In that case, it is not necessarily bad advice to have him give up his right to sue in exchange for a nolle prosequi. Also, before I started flying gliders, I had never seen one in the air, and I am well-educated, observant and interested in aviation. Most people would not know what it was at all. Nuclear security personnel have presumably been warned to watch for drone/RC aircraft threats. Also, there is a blanket TFR as mentioned previously which specifically mentions circling near nuclear facilities. I know there is an exception for glider pilots, but only glider pilots or security experts would know about that. All local law enforcement would know is that some crazy looking flying machine, which was clearly not a regular airplane, flew over the nuclear plant and then started circling nearby. I hate that this happened, especially to Robin, who is a wonderful person. But I think the best possible outcome - education of the public and of relevant security officials - is happening on a much larger scale than I had anticipated, through the interest of the press.

Glad to see that the 'good ole'boy system' is well and alive! I am an engineer and if I f'-up in my work and someone suffers damages, losses or - god forbid - gets hurt, my butt is in the sling! As a local trigger-happy cop, you can play Rambo all you want (i.e. commandeering an airport and preparing to shoot down an aircraft, etc.) and get away with not even a slap on the wrist since the local system protects you. Is that the message here?? That is disgusting!
GM

On 1/13/2013 9:35 AM, GM wrote:
On Sunday, January 13, 2013 10:54:49 AM UTC-5, James Lee wrote:
I am a local lawyer and have discussed this matter with several
other people who were directly involved. As a practical matter, I
strongly doubt a local jury would have awarded damages based on
overzealous protection of a nuclear plant. Also, a local jury might
be persuaded to find him guilty of disturbing the peace, which is a
pretty vaguely written law. He is a foreign citizen, so even a
minor conviction could cause problems if he leaves the country and
tries to return to the US, which has become his home. In that case,
it is not necessarily bad advice to have him give up his right to
sue in exchange for a nolle prosequi. Also, before I started flying
gliders, I had never seen one in the air, and I am well-educated,
observant and interested in aviation. Most people would not know
what it was at all. Nuclear security personnel have presumably been
warned to watch for drone/RC aircraft threats. Also, there is a
blanket TFR as mentioned previously which specifically mentions
circling near nuclear facilities. I know there is an exception for
glider pilots, but only glider pilots or security experts would
know about that. All local law enforcement would know is that some
crazy looking flying machine, which was clearly not a regular
airplane, flew over the nuclear plant and then started circling
nearby. I hate that this happened, especially to Robin, who is a
wonderful person. But I think the best possible outcome - education
of the public and of relevant security officials - is happening on
a much larger scale than I had anticipated, through the interest of
the press.

Glad to see that the 'good ole'boy system' is well and alive! I am an
engineer and if I f'-up in my work and someone suffers damages,
losses or - god forbid - gets hurt, my butt is in the sling! As a
local trigger-happy cop, you can play Rambo all you want (i.e.
commandeering an airport and preparing to shoot down an aircraft,
etc.) and get away with not even a slap on the wrist since the local
system protects you. Is that the message here?? That is disgusting!

As satisfying as retribution might be, James Lee's posting indicates
it's a risky approach. Again, I suggest it's better to make these people
our friends instead of our adversaries, that is why I originally
suggested offering the plant officials and police officers involved free
glider rides, and encourage them to bring their kids or grand kids.

"Good ole' boy system" or not, being part of the "system" by having
these folks understand what we do and the level of threat we present
will prevent a recurrence of this event. It will spread the message of
soaring in a place that obviously needs it, and might even attract a new
member or two as they tell others about the glider rides and how much
they and their kids enjoyed them. The next time a glider is spotted near
the plant, they can turn to the other workers and explain how the pilot
is looking for thermal, instead of calling the cops.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:08:02 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/13/2013 9:35 AM, GM wrote:

On Sunday, January 13, 2013 10:54:49 AM UTC-5, James Lee wrote:

I am a local lawyer and have discussed this matter with several

other people who were directly involved. As a practical matter, I

strongly doubt a local jury would have awarded damages based on

overzealous protection of a nuclear plant. Also, a local jury might

be persuaded to find him guilty of disturbing the peace, which is a

pretty vaguely written law. He is a foreign citizen, so even a

minor conviction could cause problems if he leaves the country and

tries to return to the US, which has become his home. In that case,

it is not necessarily bad advice to have him give up his right to

sue in exchange for a nolle prosequi. Also, before I started flying

gliders, I had never seen one in the air, and I am well-educated,

observant and interested in aviation. Most people would not know

what it was at all. Nuclear security personnel have presumably been

warned to watch for drone/RC aircraft threats. Also, there is a

blanket TFR as mentioned previously which specifically mentions

circling near nuclear facilities. I know there is an exception for

glider pilots, but only glider pilots or security experts would

know about that. All local law enforcement would know is that some

crazy looking flying machine, which was clearly not a regular

airplane, flew over the nuclear plant and then started circling

nearby. I hate that this happened, especially to Robin, who is a

wonderful person. But I think the best possible outcome - education

of the public and of relevant security officials - is happening on

a much larger scale than I had anticipated, through the interest of

the press.



Glad to see that the 'good ole'boy system' is well and alive! I am an

engineer and if I f'-up in my work and someone suffers damages,

losses or - god forbid - gets hurt, my butt is in the sling! As a

local trigger-happy cop, you can play Rambo all you want (i.e.

commandeering an airport and preparing to shoot down an aircraft,

etc.) and get away with not even a slap on the wrist since the local

system protects you. Is that the message here?? That is disgusting!



As satisfying as retribution might be, James Lee's posting indicates

it's a risky approach. Again, I suggest it's better to make these people

our friends instead of our adversaries, that is why I originally

suggested offering the plant officials and police officers involved free

glider rides, and encourage them to bring their kids or grand kids.



"Good ole' boy system" or not, being part of the "system" by having

these folks understand what we do and the level of threat we present

will prevent a recurrence of this event. It will spread the message of

soaring in a place that obviously needs it, and might even attract a new

member or two as they tell others about the glider rides and how much

they and their kids enjoyed them. The next time a glider is spotted near

the plant, they can turn to the other workers and explain how the pilot

is looking for thermal, instead of calling the cops.



--

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to

email me)

I wish you stop bringing this suggestion, if nothing else out of respect to Robin. It is pity if he can't sue and win, but will be even more pity if he will be asked to give a free ride to the policeman who arrested him. I wouldn't blame him if he forget to buckle him and proceed to fly inverted...

Ramy

On 1/13/2013 12:02 PM, Ramy wrote:
On Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:08:02 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:


"Good ole' boy system" or not, being part of the "system" by
having

these folks understand what we do and the level of threat we
present

will prevent a recurrence of this event. It will spread the message
of

soaring in a place that obviously needs it, and might even attract
a new

member or two as they tell others about the glider rides and how
much

they and their kids enjoyed them. The next time a glider is spotted
near

the plant, they can turn to the other workers and explain how the
pilot

is looking for thermal, instead of calling the cops.

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us"
to

email me)

I wish you stop bringing this suggestion, if nothing else out of
respect to Robin. It is pity if he can't sue and win, but will be
even more pity if he will be asked to give a free ride to the
policeman who arrested him. I wouldn't blame him if he forget to
buckle him and proceed to fly inverted...

I believe this matter is too serious to leave to the people that just
want revenge. What I hope for is a change in behavior and attitude, and
I think that is much more likely to happen if they can learn about the
sport and the people in it. But, if Robin wants to contact me, I'd be
happy to listen to him. My email address is ; full
contact info is on the SSA site.

I don't think anyone should ask Robin to give rides to these people.
That can be done by any competent pilot, but the pilot should be better
than average at "meeting and greeting", so the plant and police people
see our sport in it's best possible light.

Jayne or Frank might be excellent choices to contact the Hartsville
people, or could suggest someone else that could offer the rides in a
compelling fashion. Maybe there is glider pilot from the Hartsville area
that would have some association with the plant/police, and make it
easier for them to accept the idea.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Sunday, January 13, 2013 10:07:18 PM UTC, Eric Greenwell wrote:


I believe this matter is too serious to leave to the people that just

want revenge. What I hope for is a change in behavior and attitude, and

I think that is much more likely to happen if they can learn about the

sport and the people in it. But, if Robin wants to contact me, I'd be

happy to listen to him. My email address is ; full

contact info is on the SSA site.


Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to

email me)

Nothing(s) improves the receptiveness of large organisations to education as well as justified litigation (or the threat of it), formal complaint or press coverage. Otherwise internal pressures lead them to take the path of least resistance which generally runs right over top of the interests of folks like us. IMHO.

John Galloway

Perhaps I "did" a faux pas as I posted creating a new thread. I will repost here. The voice of one, doesn't make a ripple, but the voices of many will make a difference. We had hoped AOPA would have enough motivation and clout to resolve the issue, this has not occurred, thus I turn to you, fellow soaring pilots. There, by the grace of God go I, I believe is the saying. I have flown to Hartsville airport and over that very Nuclear Plant for over 20 years. There may be a Nuclear Plant in your area. Thanks to you Mike Koerner for taking the lead, well written, well said, well done.

Hello all, well I've done a bit of research. I now come to you, as sailplane pilots, to ask your help. I have been told that e mails do not carry weight. The thing that gets their attention is the fact that someone took the time to sit down and compose a letter, on paper and send it. That carries weight. I've been told out local FAA rep is being "held back" .



Please write to our Representative and Senators below to increase the "weight" of the subject in their inbox. Numbers count. (Not as much as 500,000 dollars from an energy company), but it will get some attention. You have the possibility to fly at ANY gliderport and there may be numerous nuclear facilities. We can address this locally and then you, too, might want to write to your local representative to be sure that it works it's way to the desk of Homeland Security.


I'll include my letter, so you have it for reference.


You might mention that you would fly, perhaps, here in our great state of South Carolina, and are concerned that this situation exists.


You may ask - why now and not months ago? We were waiting for AOPA to resolve this at a higher level. It hasn't happened. It may not be on their radar...ie "Barney loose in Darlington Cty."


The addresses follow:


The Honorable Mick Mulvaney
United States House of Representatives
1207 Longworth HOB
Washington, D.C. 20515


The Honorable Tim Scott
United States Senate
113 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510


The Honorable Lindsey Graham
United States Senate
290 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510


January 15, 2013


The Honorable Mick Mulvaney
United States House of Representatives
1207 Longworth HOB
Washington, D.C. 20515


Dear Representative Mulvaney,


Recently a story was published by AOPA (Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association) which explains my reason for writing to you for your assistance. I am co owner of Bermuda High Soaring School and a single engine pilot as well as a glider pilot. I am concerned that the problem addressed in the article and on line via video has not been solved. To understand the full story, please visit the AOPA website: http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/article...html?CMP=ADV:1 . In short, one of our pilots was “ordered” to land at Hartsville airport and arrested for “breach of peace” for flying in a “No Fly Zone”. He was held overnight and throughout the next day until he spoke with the FBI and Homeland Security. The FAA, the FBI, and Homeland Security all agreed that the pilot had broken no regulations. Darlington County continued to hold and charge the pilot with breach of peace. It was a 24 hour nightmare.


Bermuda High Soaring School is honored to host the 18 meter National Sailplane Competition this May 2013. We will have pilots competing from as far away as California and Canada. It does not reflect well on our state to be referred to as Mayberry, where Barney is required to carry his bullet in his pocket. I am reaching out for a voice of common sense, so that we may not have to go through this ordeal again. There are numerous Nuclear Stations all over the country. Will pilots everywhere feel that they too, may be arrested for passing over or circling near a Nuclear Station?


We have reached out to our Columbia FSDO office. The flight and arrest occurred in July 2012 and we have no resolution. We would appreciate your help in requesting our local FAA office to address the situation. The airspace above the Robinson Nuclear Plant is available for anyone to fly over, around and through. One point was brought to our attention is the security personal at the power plant could be in violation of Federal Aviation Regulation FAR §91.11 Prohibition on interference with crewmembers. No person may assault, threaten, intimidate, or interfere with a crew- member in the performance of the crewmember’s duties aboard an aircraft being operated.


To address the issue of “Loitering” over a Nuclear Station, I offer the following information which was resolved ten years ago in 2002. The "No Loitering" Rule Flight Near and Over Power Plants, etc. Following the Sept. 11th attacks, the FAA issued NOTAMs restricting "loitering" in the area of power plants, national laboratories and other national security targets. The rules have presented some specific problems for glider pilots. Specifically the rules failed to define "how close is too close" and failed to take into account that "loitering" for a powered aircraft, that is turning in a circle, is actually a mode of flight for gliding. Common Sense - The issue about loitering is the volume of time spent in a given area. In FAA's view, according to our Washington contacts, gliders do not "loiter." That is, circling is a mode of flight for us and is acceptable at or near these facilities. The key is to spend only as much time as needed to gain lift and move on beyond the facility.

The South Carolina Governor’s School for Mathematics and Science is also in your district and we are very happy and proud to have been selected as a “mid semester course facility for teaching six students to fly sailplanes. We just completed the course and were featured on the January 11, 2013 front page of the Lancaster News.

Any help you may offer to resolve this situation is appreciated. We look forward to a successful National Contest in May as well as many enjoyable Soaring days near Hartsville, SC in the future.







Sincerely,







Jayne Ewing Reid




Thank you all for your assistance in this matter. I don't know how to thank those who will take the time to write, as I'll not know who wrote, but just know I appreciate the support.

Warm Regards,




Jayne

JX