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Loose Bolts Ground V-22 Ospreys; Four Aircraft in Iraq Will NeedFixes



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 26th 09, 10:56 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Jack Linthicum
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 301
Default Loose Bolts Ground V-22 Ospreys; Four Aircraft in Iraq Will NeedFixes

On Mar 26, 3:58*am, Kerryn Offord wrote:
Matt Wiser wrote:
Then explain its record in Iraq and Afghanistan so far. No combat losses or
crashes in-country. Like I said, if you have an alternative platform to
replace the H-46s, let's hear it. Otherwise, either get on board or get out
of the way.


doing what kind of operations at what kind of tempo..

last we heard (SMN) it was doing the mail runs.. and running through
their engines at a high rate of knots...

As for alternatives.. any number of proper helicopters... Things that
can carry the same cargo with a third of the power requirements.. And
can fly quite easily with a slung load... (If the V-22 fly with a slung
load you'd be better off using helicopters... they're only any good if
you can fly with internal cargo only.. and even then it gets a bit
cramped....


First crash with real troops on board and it gets on the "history"
list. One of the concepts of the V-22 was its ability to switch from
vertical to horizontal. The loose bolts seem to suggest that might not
work every time.
  #12  
Old March 26th 09, 11:38 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Curt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Loose Bolts Ground V-22 Ospreys; Four Aircraft in Iraq Will Need Fixes

"Vincent Brannigan" wrote in message
...
vaughn wrote:
"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message
...

Compromising control of the rotor sounds like a fatal crash to me. I
have seen military blogs that say that all of the production must be
finished and accepted before the first major accident can occur.
Wishing or making sure?


This is the type of stuff that happens with any new aircraft. We
"learn by doing". With something as complex and as "different" as the
Osprey, we will probably see a significant list of these issues. And
yes, some of them will probably cause accidents before the learning is
all over.

Vaughn




"new" ? any idea how long this sucker has been teething?

First flight was 19 March 1989

20 years ago !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Keep making excuses for the turkey

Vince


I guess this means the C-130 a turkey as well. 'course, it's only been
flying since 1956.
"Inspections of C-130 Hercules cargo aircraft ... are turning up cracks in
the nuts and bolts used to attach the wings to the planes' fuselages. The
order to inspect the fleet came late Thursday after cracks were found in
some upper wing joint barrel nuts. As a result, the U.S. Air Force has
ordered that every C-130 in the nation's 600-plane fleet be checked, which
includes the older..."
--
Curt
KVPS


  #13  
Old March 26th 09, 12:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Jack Linthicum
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 301
Default Loose Bolts Ground V-22 Ospreys; Four Aircraft in Iraq Will NeedFixes

On Mar 26, 6:38*am, "Curt" wrote:
"Vincent Brannigan" wrote in message

...



vaughn wrote:
"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message
....


Compromising control of the rotor sounds like a fatal crash to me. I
have seen *military blogs that say that all of the production must be
finished and accepted before the first major accident can occur.
Wishing or making sure?


* *This is the type of stuff that happens with any new aircraft. *We
"learn by doing". *With something as complex and as "different" as the
Osprey, we will probably see a significant list of these issues. *And
yes, some of them will probably cause accidents before the learning is
all over.


Vaughn


"new" *? *any idea how long this sucker has been teething?


First flight was 19 March 1989


20 years ago !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Keep making excuses for the turkey


Vince


I guess this means the C-130 a turkey as well. *'course, it's only been
flying since 1956.
"Inspections of C-130 Hercules cargo aircraft ... are turning up cracks in
the nuts and bolts used to attach the wings to the planes' fuselages. The
order to inspect the fleet came late Thursday after cracks were found in
some upper wing joint barrel nuts. As a result, the U.S. Air Force has
ordered that every C-130 in the nation's 600-plane fleet be checked, which
includes the older..."
--
Curt
KVPS


There is a discernible difference between a device that has been used
successfully for that 53 years and is now showing signs of that age
and a device which shows signs of age without being old.
  #14  
Old March 26th 09, 12:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Peter Skelton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 93
Default Loose Bolts Ground V-22 Ospreys; Four Aircraft in Iraq Will Need Fixes

On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 02:21:41 -0400, "Raymond O'Hara"
wrote:


"Matt Wiser" wrote in message
...
As long as it takes. The USMC has a habit of getting its way on
procurement,
so either get on board or get out of the way. Not to mention that it's
been
a number of years since the last crash (the one that had 19 Marines
killed),
and the aircraft has been tested, evaled, and tested again. If you've got
an
alternative aircraft to replace the H-46, let's hear it. If not, follow
the
above advice.



there comes a point when it's obvious the thing doesn't work as advertised.
the V-22 passed that 5 years ago.
the B-29 had no more than normal teething troubles and was soon enough
sorted out.

The development of the B-29 was long, expensive and difficult for
the time. There was a direct and urgent need that made it worth
the trouble. Under similar pressure the V-22 might have worked
two decades ago.


Peter Skelton
  #15  
Old March 26th 09, 12:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Peter Skelton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 93
Default Loose Bolts Ground V-22 Ospreys; Four Aircraft in Iraq Will Need Loose Bolts Ground V-22 Ospreys; Four Aircraft in Iraq Will Need

On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 02:56:45 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
wrote:

On Mar 26, 3:58*am, Kerryn Offord wrote:
Matt Wiser wrote:
Then explain its record in Iraq and Afghanistan so far. No combat losses or
crashes in-country. Like I said, if you have an alternative platform to
replace the H-46s, let's hear it. Otherwise, either get on board or get out
of the way.


doing what kind of operations at what kind of tempo..

last we heard (SMN) it was doing the mail runs.. and running through
their engines at a high rate of knots...

As for alternatives.. any number of proper helicopters... Things that
can carry the same cargo with a third of the power requirements.. And
can fly quite easily with a slung load... (If the V-22 fly with a slung
load you'd be better off using helicopters... they're only any good if
you can fly with internal cargo only.. and even then it gets a bit
cramped....


First crash with real troops on board and it gets on the "history"
list. One of the concepts of the V-22 was its ability to switch from
vertical to horizontal. The loose bolts seem to suggest that might not
work every time.


April 8, 2000


Peter Skelton
  #16  
Old March 26th 09, 04:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Bill Kambic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 57
Default Loose Bolts Ground V-22 Ospreys; Four Aircraft in Iraq Will Need Fixes

On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 16:21:48 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
wrote:

vaughn wrote:
"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message
...

Compromising control of the rotor sounds like a fatal crash to me. I
have seen military blogs that say that all of the production must be
finished and accepted before the first major accident can occur.
Wishing or making sure?


This is the type of stuff that happens with any new aircraft. We "learn
by doing". With something as complex and as "different" as the Osprey, we
will probably see a significant list of these issues. And yes, some of them
will probably cause accidents before the learning is all over.

Vaughn




"new" ? any idea how long this sucker has been teething?

First flight was 19 March 1989

20 years ago !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


A good friend of mine ditched an S-2E off Rhode Island in 1973 after
an elctrical system glitch was found. That system that failed had
been in Fleet Service in the S-2D, E, and G series.

We were still learning about the P-3 in late '70s and early '80s, more
than 20 years after fleet introduction.

I suspect every aircraft ever put into service surprises the users
from time to time.

  #17  
Old March 26th 09, 07:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Matt Wiser
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 34
Default Loose Bolts Ground V-22 Ospreys; Four Aircraft in Iraq Will NeedFixes

On Mar 26, 8:11*am, Vincent Brannigan wrote:
Curt wrote:
"Vincent Brannigan" wrote in message
...
vaughn wrote:
"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message
....


Compromising control of the rotor sounds like a fatal crash to
me. I have seen *military blogs that say that all of the
production must be finished and accepted before the first major
*accident can occur. Wishing or making sure?
This is the type of stuff that happens with any new aircraft. *We
*"learn by doing". *With something as complex and as "different"
as the Osprey, we will probably see a significant list of these
issues. *And yes, some of them will probably cause accidents
before the learning is all over.


Vaughn


"new" *? *any idea how long this sucker has been teething?


First flight was 19 March 1989


20 years ago !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Keep making excuses for the turkey


Vince


I guess this means the C-130 a turkey as well. *'course, it's only
been flying since 1956. "Inspections of C-130 Hercules cargo aircraft
*... are turning up cracks in the nuts and bolts used to attach the
wings to the planes' fuselages. The order to inspect the fleet came
late Thursday after cracks were found in some upper wing joint barrel
*nuts. As a result, the U.S. Air Force has ordered that every C-130
in the nation's 600-plane fleet be checked, which includes the
older..."


the *suggestion was that this was a "This is the type of stuff that
happens with any new aircraft"

The C 130 is a quality control issue with a part

"Concerns surfaced March 5 about a particular brand of upper wing
joint barrel nuts used in C-130s to attach the wings to the fuselage.
* The barrel nuts supplied by one manufacturer were deemed "suspect"
* after routine inspections discovered a potential for stress fractures
* in the metal. As a result, the Pentagon mandated a fleetwide
* inspection of each plane's 26 barrel nuts and replacement of all nuts
* with the faulty design before the planes could fly again."

The V-22 Loose bolts are either a maintenance screw up or a design problem

Vince- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Most likely the former. They're still finding occasional issues with
C-130s, P-3s, F/A-18s, etc. If you've got an existing helo that can
match the range, performance, and other requirements that the V-22
meets, name it. Otherwise, get on board or get out of the way.
  #18  
Old March 26th 09, 07:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Jack Linthicum
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 301
Default Loose Bolts Ground V-22 Ospreys; Four Aircraft in Iraq Will NeedFixes

On Mar 26, 2:17*pm, Matt Wiser wrote:
On Mar 26, 8:11*am, Vincent Brannigan wrote:



Curt wrote:
"Vincent Brannigan" wrote in message
...
vaughn wrote:
"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message
...


Compromising control of the rotor sounds like a fatal crash to
me. I have seen *military blogs that say that all of the
production must be finished and accepted before the first major
*accident can occur. Wishing or making sure?
This is the type of stuff that happens with any new aircraft. *We
*"learn by doing". *With something as complex and as "different"
as the Osprey, we will probably see a significant list of these
issues. *And yes, some of them will probably cause accidents
before the learning is all over.


Vaughn


"new" *? *any idea how long this sucker has been teething?


First flight was 19 March 1989


20 years ago !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Keep making excuses for the turkey


Vince


I guess this means the C-130 a turkey as well. *'course, it's only
been flying since 1956. "Inspections of C-130 Hercules cargo aircraft
*... are turning up cracks in the nuts and bolts used to attach the
wings to the planes' fuselages. The order to inspect the fleet came
late Thursday after cracks were found in some upper wing joint barrel
*nuts. As a result, the U.S. Air Force has ordered that every C-130
in the nation's 600-plane fleet be checked, which includes the
older..."


the *suggestion was that this was a "This is the type of stuff that
happens with any new aircraft"


The C 130 is a quality control issue with a part


"Concerns surfaced March 5 about a particular brand of upper wing
joint barrel nuts used in C-130s to attach the wings to the fuselage.
* The barrel nuts supplied by one manufacturer were deemed "suspect"
* after routine inspections discovered a potential for stress fractures
* in the metal. As a result, the Pentagon mandated a fleetwide
* inspection of each plane's 26 barrel nuts and replacement of all nuts
* with the faulty design before the planes could fly again."


The V-22 Loose bolts are either a maintenance screw up or a design problem


Vince- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Most likely the former. They're still finding occasional issues with
C-130s, P-3s, F/A-18s, etc. If you've got an existing helo that can
match the range, performance, and other requirements that the V-22
meets, name it. Otherwise, get on board or get out of the way.


Might recommend getting out of the way, V-22's greatest quality is
speed, an overrated quality in a combat situation.
  #19  
Old March 26th 09, 09:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Peter Skelton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 93
Default Loose Bolts Ground V-22 Ospreys; Four Aircraft in Iraq Will Need Loose Bolts Ground V-22 Ospreys; Four Aircraft in Iraq Will Need

On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:11:06 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
wrote:

Curt wrote:
"Vincent Brannigan" wrote in message
...
vaughn wrote:
"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message
...



Compromising control of the rotor sounds like a fatal crash to
me. I have seen military blogs that say that all of the
production must be finished and accepted before the first major
accident can occur. Wishing or making sure?
This is the type of stuff that happens with any new aircraft. We
"learn by doing". With something as complex and as "different"
as the Osprey, we will probably see a significant list of these
issues. And yes, some of them will probably cause accidents
before the learning is all over.

Vaughn



"new" ? any idea how long this sucker has been teething?

First flight was 19 March 1989

20 years ago !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Keep making excuses for the turkey

Vince


I guess this means the C-130 a turkey as well. 'course, it's only
been flying since 1956. "Inspections of C-130 Hercules cargo aircraft
... are turning up cracks in the nuts and bolts used to attach the
wings to the planes' fuselages. The order to inspect the fleet came
late Thursday after cracks were found in some upper wing joint barrel
nuts. As a result, the U.S. Air Force has ordered that every C-130
in the nation's 600-plane fleet be checked, which includes the
older..."

the suggestion was that this was a "This is the type of stuff that
happens with any new aircraft"

The C 130 is a quality control issue with a part

"Concerns surfaced March 5 about a particular brand of upper wing
joint barrel nuts used in C-130s to attach the wings to the fuselage.
The barrel nuts supplied by one manufacturer were deemed "suspect"
after routine inspections discovered a potential for stress fractures
in the metal. As a result, the Pentagon mandated a fleetwide
inspection of each plane's 26 barrel nuts and replacement of all nuts
with the faulty design before the planes could fly again."




The V-22 Loose bolts are either a maintenance screw up or a design problem

On what basis do you reject subspecification manufacture, and
improper original installation?

..

Peter Skelton
  #20  
Old March 26th 09, 11:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Arved Sandstrom[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14
Default Loose Bolts Ground V-22 Ospreys; Four Aircraft in Iraq Will NeedFixes

Matt Wiser wrote:
As long as it takes. The USMC has a habit of getting its way on procurement,
so either get on board or get out of the way. Not to mention that it's been
a number of years since the last crash (the one that had 19 Marines killed),
and the aircraft has been tested, evaled, and tested again. If you've got an
alternative aircraft to replace the H-46, let's hear it. If not, follow the
above advice.

[ SNIP ]

New CH-46's? I'm not being entirely facetious here...other folks
suggested this back in the '90's, although the idea would have been to
manufacture an improved CH-46.

One of our (any country, not just the US) biggest defense procurement
problems is whenever a weapons system or vehicle or
radio...whatever...starts getting old, we almost always feel the need to
design and build a *new* thing. I'll buy that concept for electronics,
but it's not obvious to me that if a truck fleet or a buy of helicopters
or rifles gets worn out, that we need to spend 10 or 20 years designing
entirely new ones.

AHS
 




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