Hold at VOR for 2v2

So I am in the hold at the BJC VOR for the VOR DME approach to 2v2.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0405/09041VDA.PDF

At what point do I leave the hold and intercept the 345 radial?

At the VOR? Or at the end of the outbound leg?

Thx

In a previous article, (Doug) said:
So I am in the hold at the BJC VOR for the VOR DME approach to 2v2.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0405/09041VDA.PDF

At what point do I leave the hold and intercept the 345 radial?

At the VOR? Or at the end of the outbound leg?

Note that the depicted hold is a missed approach hold, not a hold in lieu
of a procedure turn. If you were in the missed approach hold and you
decided to do the approach again, I think you'd have to go to the VOR,
since it's the IAF. I'm not sure how you're supposed to get back on
course since it says "Procedure Turn NA" in the profile view. Without
that notation, I'd think the prudent thing would be a left turn to 165 and
then a procedure turn to the left. Turning right to intercept the 345
radial from there seems dangerous since it's leading to the high terrain.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
There is alleged to be an airport whose designator is ARP but I've
never got any response to my attempts to locate it.
-- Tanuki

Good one.
I'd go to the VOR then track outbound. From the outbound leg to the radial
you'd be on the non-holding side for sure or perhaps more to the point, that
piece of airspace isn't part of the approach.
Having said that, the turn at the VOR is going to have you 'far' from the
inbound course...

Iain


"Doug" wrote in message
om...
So I am in the hold at the BJC VOR for the VOR DME approach to 2v2.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0405/09041VDA.PDF

At what point do I leave the hold and intercept the 345 radial?

At the VOR? Or at the end of the outbound leg?

Thx

On 20 May 2004 23:13:28 -0700, (Doug)
wrote:

o I am in the hold at the BJC VOR for the VOR DME approach to 2v2.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0405/09041VDA.PDF

At what point do I leave the hold and intercept the 345 radial?

At the VOR? Or at the end of the outbound leg?

At first I was going to makes some smart-alecky remark like "when you
are cleared for the approach" but then I remembered that the direction
of turns in the hold doesn't make it obvious.

I would leave the hold at the VOR rather than at some unknown point in
space at the end of an outbound leg. Follow the usual procedure of
entering and exiting a holding pattern at the holding fix.

The real question is which way to turn one arriving at the VOR. A
right turn to intercept is shorter, but I would make a left turn.

The location of the holding pattern is a function of airspace and
terrain clearance issues, A right turn could very well put me into
unprotected airspace. Besides, since I've already been making a bunch
of left turns in the hold, it would be easier.

So, I'd begin the intercept upon reaching the VOR by turning in the
direction of the hold, but continuing the turn to 300° -315° to
intercept the R-345

Mark Kolber
APA/Denver, Colorado
www.midlifeflight.com
======================
email? Remove ".no.spam"

(Paul Tomblin) wrote in
:

In a previous article, (Doug) said:
So I am in the hold at the BJC VOR for the VOR DME approach to 2v2.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0405/09041VDA.PDF

At what point do I leave the hold and intercept the 345 radial?

At the VOR? Or at the end of the outbound leg?

Note that the depicted hold is a missed approach hold, not a hold in
lieu of a procedure turn. If you were in the missed approach hold and
you decided to do the approach again, I think you'd have to go to the
VOR, since it's the IAF. I'm not sure how you're supposed to get back
on course since it says "Procedure Turn NA" in the profile view.
Without that notation, I'd think the prudent thing would be a left
turn to 165 and then a procedure turn to the left. Turning right to
intercept the 345 radial from there seems dangerous since it's leading
to the high terrain.



The authorized altitude to start the approach is 9200' which is above the
terrain close to the VOR. A right turn to intercept R-345 is not
particularly dangerous at 9200' unless you have a huge wind out fo the
east. Presumably 8000' will be authorized if radar monitoring is
available.

Doug wrote:

So I am in the hold at the BJC VOR for the VOR DME approach to 2v2.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0405/09041VDA.PDF

At what point do I leave the hold and intercept the 345 radial?

At the VOR? Or at the end of the outbound leg?

Thx

First, the alignment of the holding pattern is poor procedure design.
The maximum angle should be 120 degrees; it's 143. Having said that
since you're required to have DME to fly this approach you should treat
the VOR as a fly-by "waypoint," which you can do quite accruately with
DME. The lead distance depends upon your speed. With that angle 1.5 to
2.0 miles should roll you pretty well out on course. At the VOR there
is lots of protected airspace at 8,000; 4 miles each side of the 345
radial with an additional 2 mile secondary area on each of those sides.
Those widths ramp down to primaries of 1.5 miles each side of course at
the FAF, with .33 mile secondaries on each side.

If you have previously missed the approach and are holding at 8,000,
then ATC clears you for another approach at that altitude, they have
approved beginning the approach at 8,000. Contrary to what someone else
says, ATC radar is not required for that approval.

On 20 May 2004 23:13:28 -0700, (Doug) wrote:

So I am in the hold at the BJC VOR for the VOR DME approach to 2v2.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0405/09041VDA.PDF

At what point do I leave the hold and intercept the 345 radial?

At the VOR? Or at the end of the outbound leg?

Thx

If I were in that hold and cleared for the approach, after passing the VOR
(which is the IAF) I would then turn left (staying the same side of the VOR
as the hold) to intercept the 345 radial.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
In a previous article, (Doug) said:
So I am in the hold at the BJC VOR for the VOR DME approach to 2v2.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0405/09041VDA.PDF

At what point do I leave the hold and intercept the 345 radial?

At the VOR? Or at the end of the outbound leg?

Note that the depicted hold is a missed approach hold, not a hold in lieu
of a procedure turn. If you were in the missed approach hold and you
decided to do the approach again, I think you'd have to go to the VOR,
since it's the IAF. I'm not sure how you're supposed to get back on
course since it says "Procedure Turn NA" in the profile view. Without
that notation, I'd think the prudent thing would be a left turn to 165 and
then a procedure turn to the left. Turning right to intercept the 345
radial from there seems dangerous since it's leading to the high terrain.


Huh? Making up your own procedures and vectors is probably not a good idea.
The chart clearly shows 8000' for the missed appch altitude (seems to be
quite safe to me) and VOR crossing altitude is 9200', then down to other
altitudes.

So why is the hold for missed so special. Proc turn is NA in any case and
the first time to the VOR/approach what are you going to do? Make up
another of your turns?

Follow the chart and don't guess - at the VOR turn inbound, intercept the
radial as depicted and you will be fine.



--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
There is alleged to be an airport whose designator is ARP but I've
never got any response to my attempts to locate it.
-- Tanuki

Richard Hertz wrote:



Follow the chart and don't guess - at the VOR turn inbound, intercept the
radial as depicted and you will be fine.

Your view of "following the chart" is different than mine. With DME it makes
much more sense to lead the turn so you ideally roll out on the 345 radial.
Your way would result in a lot of overshoot.

Paul Tomblin wrote:


course since it says "Procedure Turn NA" in the profile view. Without
that notation, I'd think the prudent thing would be a left turn to 165 and
then a procedure turn to the left. Turning right to intercept the 345
radial from there seems dangerous since it's leading to the high terrain.

ATC would expect you to go straight-in. If the holding pattern had been
designed properly, it would be within 120 degrees of the inbound course, which
would have made it okay for "NoPT." With a DME lead you can still do a nice
job of "fly-by, thus not getting over on the high terrain side at all.

Rolling your own course reversals is certainly not the way to go.