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Can F-15s making 9G turns with payload?



 
 
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  #71  
Old September 21st 03, 06:16 AM
Chad Irby
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Mike Marron wrote:

This sums up Mike's entire fixation:

Allow me to explain one more time that I doubt that the fasteners
were designed to take shear loads in the threaded area NOT that there
were "four bolts running straight into the bottom of the plane."


That's because, again, the bolts were NOT installed in such a way as to
take a SHEAR load.

It was a TENSION load, running vertically through the plane. The
threads of the bolts and the nutplates were the ONLY things holding the
entire assembly to the aircraft.

Since you can't after several reiterations, manage to keep that in mind,
it's pretty damned obvious that you're never *going* to get it.

Everything else you wrote is just noise.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.
  #72  
Old September 21st 03, 07:11 AM
Mike Marron
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Chad Irby wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:


Allow me to explain one more time that I doubt that the fasteners
were designed to take shear loads in the threaded area NOT that there
were "four bolts running straight into the bottom of the plane."


That's because, again, the bolts were NOT installed in such a way as to
take a SHEAR load.


I've asked you several times if those "four bolts" that you kept
referring to all-thread bolts and what type of loads were
they designed for. Now that we've finally established that little
bit of info...

Everything else you wrote is just noise.


Not nearly as noisy as the smoke blowing out your ass such as:

"I know there were a couple of cases in Vietnam where F-4s made hard
enough turns to rip the ECM pods off..."

"An apocryphal story they used to tell us was that some fighter jock
was trying to kill a boat on a river. He dropped bombs. Missed. He
used up all of his 20mm. Missed. So he went in on a run and
jettisoned the pod. Hit. one $5,000 boat for a million dollar pod..."

"You have to rmember that for at least some of the Vietnam War, some
pilots didn't like ECM pods at *all*. Weren't manly enough, or
something. After they started noticing a somewhat higher survival
rate among pilots with pods, they got the message."

"But by the early 1980s, a lot of jet jockeys were back to the "pods
are for wimps" sort of attitude."

"Speaking of Vietnam: one afternoon, we were working on a plane, and
one of the sheet-metal guys came over to us. He'd just replaced a
patch on the tail of one plane, and he had the old patch in his hands.
It was a flattened can of Vietnamese beer from ten years back..."

-Mike ( Riiiiiiiight ) Marron




  #73  
Old September 21st 03, 09:54 AM
Nele_VII
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Gentlemen,

To paraphrase on of Sir Murphy's Laws,
"If it should break, it will break. If it shouldn't break, it will break".

I am just an armchair aviator, but I've seen a car (same manufacturer, but
from 1993) with broken bottom ball bearing on right wheel. (my car is 1974'
vintage, BTW 8-). The driver said 'it's that bl**dy hole in the middle of
the road, and I was doing 50Kmph". Since he was already aside, I turned my
wreck, pardon, my car, ))) and performed run over the hole... at 60KmPh.
Just a "bump", nothing happened. He just told me with a sore smile "don't
tell this to my insurance".

BTW, cars had the identical suspension/wheel mounting (Russian Lada, my
model 2101, his 2107). Both had original parts, bar mine that had steereng
rods (not bearings) changed in 1982...

S*it happens, that's it.

So, what happened with over g's, since it all went to nuts and bolts? Mr
Cooper, I have read from the interview that one pilot of MiG-25 went to
arond 11g... he skewed a plane a bit, but landed OK. Any info on Russian
planes over g' ing (especially MiG-23MLD, that can pull 8.5g versus ML that
can go to 8g)?

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA

Mike Marron wrote in message ...
"Gord Beaman" ) wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:


For example, a standard AN6 bolt (3/8-inch diameter shank) has
a shear strength of approx. 8700 lbs. IIRC. And there is probably
more than just one of these or similiar types of bolts securing the
ECM gear to the belly of an F-4.


But that's 'shear strength' isn't it?...sounds to me as if these
pods are held on so as not to use the shear strength, right?


As opposed to what, tensile strength? Could be (I've never hung an
ECM pod on an F-4) but the bottom line is that it's highly unlikely
an ECM pod could be "ripped" from the belly of an F-4 while maneuvering.

If you're interested, this is a highly recommended book: Carroll Smith's
Nuts, Bolts and Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook.

MJM



  #74  
Old September 21st 03, 03:11 PM
Chad Irby
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Mike Marron wrote:

I've asked you several times if those "four bolts" that you kept
referring to all-thread bolts and what type of loads were
they designed for. Now that we've finally established that little
bit of info...


"Finally?"

You mean, after the first four or five times?

Sheesh.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.
  #75  
Old September 21st 03, 03:30 PM
Mike Marron
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Chad Irby wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:


I've asked you several times if those "four bolts" that you kept
referring to all-thread bolts and what type of loads were
they designed for. Now that we've finally established that little
bit of info...


"Finally?"


You mean, after the first four or five times?


Scroll back through all the B.S. you've posted in this thread
and show me just one time (prior to your last post you sent
late last night) that you specifically said the bolts in question
were NOT installed in such a way as to take a shear load.

Just *one* time, please and thank you.




  #76  
Old September 21st 03, 04:09 PM
Ed Rasimus
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On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:06:35 GMT, Buzzer wrote:

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:14:04 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

Thanks Walt for explaining that. I knew they were cracked, but not the
exact why. I never got over seeing those massive plates on the outer
wing panels. Just seemed like more madness of the Vietnam war...


--snip--

Not at all related to the "madness"--simply a fact of life that metal
can only be flexed so many times before it fatigues. We had the
reinforced wings at Torrejon while I was flogging F-4Cs from '73 to
'77. Hardly noticed them after a while.


A fact of life that the U.S. government can't supply the people that
defend it with something more than a patched up worn out airframe?


I checked out in the F-4C at Luke in April/May of '72, then went to
E-models at Korat. The C at Luke was more than adequate to do the job
although I would have liked consistent switchology with the airplane I
was going to fly combat in. Still, I managed to cope without too much
trouble.

After leaving Korat, I flew C's at Torrejon for four years, from '73
through '77. The C was certainly not "worn out" by a long shot and
because of the relative simplicity of the weapons system (no WRCS,
TISEO, TREE, LES, etc.) it had a higher in-commission rate than D's in
England or E's in Germany at that time. We had responsibility in USAFE
for the NATO Southern Region, and were more than 1/3rd deployed
continually.

We did nuke alert in Aviano and Incirlik, air defense in Spain and on
other deployments, ground attack wherever necessary and led the force
in development of anti-ship tactics.

The C with it's wing fold hinge patches was a long way from "worn out"
and the patches weren't atypical regarding fixes for a lot of various
types and models of aircraft.

When tactical aircraft cost multiple millions apiece and when the
taxpayers deserve to get the maximum bang for their bucks and when the
Congress is reluctant to approve lots of new spending, it isn't really
a bad decision.

  #77  
Old September 21st 03, 04:43 PM
Mike Marron
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"Nele_VII" wrote:

Gentlemen,


To paraphrase on of Sir Murphy's Laws,
"If it should break, it will break. If it shouldn't break, it will break".


I am just an armchair aviator, but I've seen a car (same manufacturer, but
from 1993) with broken bottom ball bearing on right wheel. (my car is 1974'
vintage, BTW 8-). The driver said 'it's that bl**dy hole in the middle of
the road, and I was doing 50Kmph". Since he was already aside, I turned my
wreck, pardon, my car, ))) and performed run over the hole... at 60KmPh.
Just a "bump", nothing happened. He just told me with a sore smile "don't
tell this to my insurance".


BTW, cars had the identical suspension/wheel mounting (Russian Lada, my
model 2101, his 2107). Both had original parts, bar mine that had steereng
rods (not bearings) changed in 1982...


S*it happens, that's it.


With such a lackadaisical attitude towards safety as that, little
wonder "**** happens" so much more frequently in Russia than it
does elsewhere in the industrialized world. The goal is to try and
reduce the amount of "**** happening."

Based on what you just wrote, it appears that your homeland is
Russia -- where manufactured products are produced under
less stringent QC (quality control) programs compared to the
QC programs found in the US, UK, France, etc. which ensure that
EVERY unit conforms with the approved design. The keyword
here is "consistency."

Aircraft especially must *consistently* conform to a higher standard
because obviously you can't merely just pull off to the side of the
road and call for help should something break in the air.

To use if your "pothole" analogy, if you happen to hit a pothole in
the sky (e.g: severe turbulence) and your wing fails catastrophically
in midair, you better have jam in your pockets because your ass is
toast.

The following recent tragedy indicates just how poor and INconsistent
the Russians are with regards to quality control. Aeros, a Russian
company that manufactures flexwings primarily for recreational use,
were buying anodized tubing from Antonov Design Bureau stock.

One year ago an experienced American flexwing pilot named Bert
Breitung was flying an Aeros wing when the left leading edge tube
failed during an approach to landing and rolled the craft inverted
causing Bert to auger straight in killing him instantly.

An American metallurgist subsequently inspected the damaged
tube from the fatal crash and found a crack in the wing leading edge
tube. The wing had been manufactured in September 1999
and had only 30 hrs. on it.

Even worse, after word of this fatal accident got out it was later
determined that he tubing that they were getting from Antonov had too
many scratches and flaws for it to look good anodized only so the
Ruskies were simply covering up the defects by also painting the
tubes!

Sleazy, unethical and potentially deadly practices such as the example
above are virtually unheard of here in the U.S. and rarely, if ever,
does a critical component such as a wing leading edge tube fail.

Which brings me back to the topic of the ALLEGED catastrophic failure
of F-4 ECM pods in combat over Vietnam. Had such incidents actually
occurred, rest assurred that the facts as to precisely WHY the pods
ripped away from the airplane would be widely known by the thousands
of dedicated professionals in the F-4 community whom were intimately
involved with flying and fixing the multi-million dollar jet.

-Mike Marron
CFII, A&P, UFI (fixed wing, weightshift, land & sea)
















  #78  
Old September 21st 03, 04:47 PM
Alan Minyard
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On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:33:40 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

Chad Irby wrote:

In article ,
"José Herculano" wrote:

Maximum I read regarding the Phantom was a guy in Vietnam pulling 14 G to
get an ass-SAM divergence. The bird held and landed.


I know there were a couple of cases in Vietnam where F-4s made hard
enough turns to rip the ECM pods off...


Gotta wonder about that, since ECM pods were routinely carried in the
Sparrow missile wells. Can't imagine a situation in which the pods
suspension gear would fail. Don't say it couldn't, simply that I doubt
it.

In 250 combat missions, 150 over NVN where high threat evasions were
most likely, I never, not even once, heard of a structural failure nor
of an inadvertent separation of any piece of equipment off an
aircraft. I'm not saying it couldn't have, simply that I doubt it.

YMMV.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038



Does "inadvertent separation" cover those "dang, wrong button"
moments?

Al Minyard
  #79  
Old September 21st 03, 04:59 PM
Ed Rasimus
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On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:47:10 -0500, Alan Minyard
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:33:40 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

In 250 combat missions, 150 over NVN where high threat evasions were
most likely, I never, not even once, heard of a structural failure nor
of an inadvertent separation of any piece of equipment off an
aircraft. I'm not saying it couldn't have, simply that I doubt it.

YMMV.

Ed Rasimus


Does "inadvertent separation" cover those "dang, wrong button"
moments?

Al Minyard


No. Inadvertent means coming off without action (intended or
accidental) on the part of the aircrew. I've done some of those "dang
(or more scatological, crude or blasphemous words), wrong button"
moves. I mention one in When Thunder Rolled, where I conducted a well
choreographed sequence of finger manipulations to clean the airplane
of tanks, suspension gear and weapons--not necessarily in that order.
I fessed up.

I also dumped a C/L MER full of 750's one stress-filled afternoon by
choosing the wrong toggle switch when I intended to blow the inboard
450 tanks. I fessed up there as well and took an unbelievable amount
of harrassment from my squadron buds.

(To this day I contend it was a result of poor design ergonomics. The
three selective jettison toggle switches were on the right lower
console panel. Republic had them reading from left to right:
inboard, centerline, outboard. I contend the logical sequence should
have been starting from the inside of the row on the right side of the
airplane: centerline, inboard, outboard. Using my logic, when I wanted
to toggle the inboard stations, I incorrectly chose the centerline
jettison switch. Worst of all, I had to continue to the target area,
support my flight, not hurt the enemy cause I didn't have any bombs to
drop and, the final indignity was I got hit by 37mm while doing it.)


  #80  
Old September 21st 03, 05:04 PM
Chad Irby
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In article ,
Mike Marron wrote:

Which brings me back to the topic of the ALLEGED catastrophic failure
of F-4 ECM pods in combat over Vietnam. Had such incidents actually
occurred, rest assurred that the facts as to precisely WHY the pods
ripped away from the airplane would be widely known by the thousands
of dedicated professionals in the F-4 community whom were intimately
involved with flying and fixing the multi-million dollar jet.


Actually, in the field, the pilots wouldn't have any reason to know
this. The people who would be expected to deal with it are the
flightline troops.

We couldn't even get most of them to learn how to use the stuff that was
installed in the planes every single day. Expecting them to know all
about the problems that can happen with nut plates inside the plane with
a system they didn't fly with all of the time is just, well, silly.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.
 




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