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#21
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Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: Cub Driver Date: 10/21/03 4:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: Bush 41 is not the albatross that many think. The media tell you that he lost the election (a close one) because of a recession and a war that turned out badly (in that Saddam remained in power). Yeah it is all the fault of the press. rather doubt Bush 41 was the youngest USN pilot of WWII, though he was certainly just a boy Weren't we all. Big deal. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#22
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Lets assume that half of it is true. Well, I have to give him greater credit than that - the author had access to all of the war crimes trial records and assembled a well-researched book that I haven't seen anyone tear apart yet. His prose is a bit over the top at times, like when he talks of the sights and smells on a carrier in the context of the WWII Essex class boats, and he mentions the smell of "jet fuel". A few small mistakes like that, plus a writer likes to overuse phrases, but the end result is well written book about a ghastly moment in human history. WEB Griffin and other professional historians were impressed, and I think the book is worth a read, if you don't mind a few unpleasant mental images. I came away with it with a better understanding of George H.W. Bush as a man. No such revelations are waiting to be revealed about his son - I believe that he will be remembered quite harshly by history. But I think the wirters were doing a sales job to engrandise the Bush name for the next election. I couldn't confuse the two men and nothing either of them could say would change my opinion of the current administration. I believe that politicians should be required to wear similar coveralls to race-car drivers, with all of their sponsors listed or represented by garrish logos. Our president has obliterated our country's reputation in the world, and the majority of the world and a good part of our own citizenry know it. I love my country and can't believe how much one presidency has altered the world's perception of us. v/r Gordon |
#23
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" Gosh, I don't know. Lessee. He became ambassador to China, head of the Central Intelligence Agency, president of the United States ... No, nothing in there would explain why anyone would be more interested in him than in, say, Art Kramer. all the best -- Dan Ford email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9 Not very good at any of those jobs. Arthur Kramer Nor qualified. On 20 Oct 2003 23:42:29 GMT, nt (Gordon) wrote: The book "Flyboys" is intensely interesting and gives a lot of insight into why the other airmen were eaten by the Japanese officers, to strengthen their fighting spirit. I didn't realize that Bush 41 came so close to being eaten! He also never met Monica Lewinsky! |
#24
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Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: nt (Gordon) Date: 10/21/03 7:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: 20031021102249.19539.00 I couldn't confuse the two men and nothing either of them could say would change my opinion of the current administration. I believe that politicians should be required to wear similar coveralls to race-car drivers, with all of their sponsors listed or represented by garrish logos. Our president has obliterated our country's reputation in the world, and the majority of the world and a good part of our own citizenry know it. I love my country and can't believe how much one presidency has altered the world's perception of us. v/r Gordon Y'know, I've always liked you Gordon. (grin) Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#25
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I didn't realize that Bush 41 came so close to being eaten! He was one short swim away from an island that was populated by soldiers led by officers that felt eating the liver of an enemy was beneficial to their health. That belief didn't explain eating other body parts, notably the thigh meat, but the bottom line is that Bush paddled out - the other airmen paddled in, not knowing that their choice was fatal. v/r Gordon ====(A+C==== USN SAR Aircrew "Got anything on your radar, SENSO?" "Nothing but my forehead, sir." |
#26
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Y'know, I've always liked you Gordon.
Thanks, Art. When I lived in Austin, folks seemed amazed I didn't follow Bush around like one of his flock. My bumper sticker, "I didn't vote for his daddy either" was rather unpopular and earned me quite a few 1/2 peace signs during my time there. v/r Gordon |
#27
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Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: nt (Gordon) Date: 10/21/03 7:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: I didn't realize that Bush 41 came so close to being eaten! He was one short swim away from an island that was populated by soldiers led by officers that felt eating the liver of an enemy was beneficial to their health. That belief didn't explain eating other body parts, notably the thigh meat, but the bottom line is that Bush paddled out - the other airmen paddled in, not knowing that their choice was fatal. v/r Gordon Bush escaped death and so did Kennedy. But you don't win wars that way. You win wars by attacking the enemy and burning his black heart out leaving his nation a smoking burning ruin. Screw the "heroics" of the politicians. I'd rather hear the stories of the men who got the job done, many who never came home. The exploits of both Bush and Kennedy are weak tea when compared to better men who helped destroy the enemy, many who now lie in foreign graves..My friends among them. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#28
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"ArtKramr" wrote in message ... Subject: Fly Boy ????? From: nt (Gordon) Date: 10/21/03 7:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: I didn't realize that Bush 41 came so close to being eaten! He was one short swim away from an island that was populated by soldiers led by officers that felt eating the liver of an enemy was beneficial to their health. That belief didn't explain eating other body parts, notably the thigh meat, but the bottom line is that Bush paddled out - the other airmen paddled in, not knowing that their choice was fatal. v/r Gordon Bush escaped death and so did Kennedy. But you don't win wars that way. You win wars by attacking the enemy and burning his black heart out leaving his nation a smoking burning ruin. Screw the "heroics" of the politicians. I'd rather hear the stories of the men who got the job done, many who never came home. The exploits of both Bush and Kennedy are weak tea when compared to better men who helped destroy the enemy, many who now lie in foreign graves..My friends among them. Now I have no axe to grind one way or the other but this seems a little harsh. As best I recall Bush did get the job done, he was no politician at the time, just another carrier pilot and he left a few of his friends behind too. Including his rear gunner and radioman neither of whom was rescued after they were shot down. This guy flew 58 combat missions Art, I'd say he did his share. Keith |
#29
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Bush escaped death and so did Kennedy. But you don't win wars that way.
You win wars by attacking the enemy and burning his black heart out leaving his nation a smoking burning ruin. The island of Chichi Jima had more troops than the citadel of Iwo Jima, and was vastly easier to defend - luckily it was bypassed and we only bombed it as it would undoubtably have been the most costly US invasion of the war. To attack the critical radio relay stations and other facilities, carrier planes had to come into a sort of bowl, with only one exit, out a narrow cleft that opened to the sea. The Japanese had the ability to fire in a near 180 degree field, knowing in advance that every attacker would have to flee through that pass - guns were trained to fire down upon any such trespasser. One flight of three Avengers were all destroyed, other groups hitting the same target collided in the cramped confines of this bowl, leading to one of the more famous WWII aviation images, the Avenger in flight, minus the outer 1/2 of its port wing. Bush went down into the same firestorm of flak, pressed home his attacks and was rewarded with multiple strikes on his own aircraft, including fatal hits. Whatever he became later in life, Bush Sr. was in the middle of a shooting war and he was doing his part. Screw the "heroics" of the politicians. I'd rather hear the stories of the men who got the job done, many who never came home. Well, the book Flyboys is not about Bush nearly so much as it is the story of the other airmen, officer and enlisted, that were executed on Chichi Jima during that time. They endured unbelievable cruelty and the Japanese relished in punishing these captives for every bombing strike. The war crimes files that are now open allowed the author to include statements of admission and other interviews from the Japanese officers and soldiers, many of whom were every bit as horrified by the actions of their commanders. In each case, the demise of the individual airman is recorded and Japanese statements tie up the details. Bush's somewhat miraculous recovery in the often-seen submarine SAR footage is only a sidelight in a book that concentrates itself on telling the story of Floyd and Jimmy and all the other heroes who gave their all on that wretched little island. v/r Gordon |
#30
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Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: "Keith Willshaw" Date: 10/21/03 8:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time Now I have no axe to grind one way or the other but this seems a little harsh. As best I recall Bush did get the job done, he was no politician at the time, just another carrier pilot and he left a few of his friends behind too. Including his rear gunner and radioman neither of whom was rescued after they were shot down. This guy flew 58 combat missions Art, I'd say he did his share. Keith Let me tell you a story about a long forgotten incident in WW II. It is one of those things that have never been discussed on this NG. There was a famous footblall player, a famous All American who became a B-17 pilot. His plane was severely damaged by flack and he bailed out and survived. But not a single one of hsd crew did. There were accusations that he lost his nerve and bailed before his crew could get out. And they all died because of his cowardice. Noithing was ever proven and he was not prosecuted. But there was always that lingering doubt. And this haunted him all his life. Whenever I hear of a pilot that made it out, but the crew were all lost, it brings back the memory of that WW II incident. And there many of us who will never forget it. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
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