Navy enlistment questions

It's quite loser's story but, hell, I'll not fall lower by telling it.


I've made a big mistake in my life, namely, I've got a Ph.D. in
engineering from a second tier graduate program. Since graduation, I
had a string of sh*t pay, no benefits, long hours, dead-end postdocs
("permanently" temporary research slave jobs for 50% of the fresh (and
not so fresh) Ph.D.s who cannot find a real job). Well, me (and many,
many others) had/have no other options. During postdocing (brain
numbing, overall pointless, BS peddling to cheat a buck from Uncle Sam
kind of a job), I have developed a strong aversion to the (academic)
research trade. I cannot stand it (even in an exchange for a
theoretical lofty paycheck). Had I liked it, I would have roughed
through everything, but………research is for the single-minded zombies
with talents of a used car salesman. And it's not me.
I really like engineering, but with my degree and experience, entry
level engineering jobs are reliably out of my reach. I am
overqualified for entry-level jobs (too old also), and I am
unqualified for experience-only jobs. 1 year of unsuccessful applying
for all kinds of engineering jobs is enough to realize that there is
nothing for me in the "real world". Do not get me wrong, I have good
GPAs (3.9 both in undergrad and grad schools), I have 10 or so
publications in the premiere science journals, I have a good research
resume and good recommendations. But all that is not enough to land an
engineering job these days.

What to do?

I do not have a formal degree in EE, but I do like electronics and I
do know a lot about it. It's my true passion. I'd like to pursue a
career in electronics (desirably engineering, but technician jobs are
OK too – more difficult to offshore). It happens that I like sea, I
like (to learn about, at least) navy, ships, ship's weaponry, naval
history. I would like to try something different, new and manly like a
military service. Clock is ticking. In 4 years (I'm 30 y.o. now), I'll
not have a military option. So, I am considering enlisting to navy.
Local recruiters are not making their quotas, I was forgiven my 10
extra pounds. I think I'll be able to pass physical. I have the right
attitude to get through a boot camp too. Also, I am a permanent
resident i.e. an officer school is not an option (I am not sure if I
would be allowed to enter an officer school in such a ripe age,
anyway).

My questions:

1) Is 30 y.o. is too old to be a sailor? I know navy is OK with 30y.o.
sailors, but….will I look like a freak among early 20th crowd?
2) Have you ever seen a Ph.D. enlisting as a sailor? Do you think it
will be better for me not to mention my Ph.D. at all: a) to avoid
future pecking along the line "let's see how smart you really are" b)
not to be an unofficial poster child for a loser. How thoroughly
background check is done? Will such an omission be counted against me
if discovered?
3) What is the most challenging electronics field in navy? What is its
rate? Is it open for non citizens (Hopefully, I'll be a citizen in 2
years or so)? Ideally, I would like something involving little bit of
design (I hope to pass PE exam in the future, and I need a design
experience to be registered as a professional engineer).
4) Assuming that I will like the service, will be good at it, will get
my citizenship and will decide to become an officer: a) what is max
age for applicants to an officer school? b) will I be required to
fulfill my enlistment obligations prior to applying to a school?
5) Are those with earned college degrees qualified for the Navy
college funds?
6) In army, enlisted college graduates fresh out of a boot camp get
higher rank than HS graduates do. Does anything like that exist in
navy?

Thanks to anyone who'll bother to reply.

"Atcrossroad" wrote in message
om...

1) Is 30 y.o. is too old to be a sailor? I know navy is OK with 30y.o.
sailors, but..will I look like a freak among early 20th crowd?
2) Have you ever seen a Ph.D. enlisting as a sailor?

Don't even think of it. You will be the proverbial square peg in the round
hole, you will be trapped, miserable, and still working for peanuts.

3) What is the most challenging electronics field in navy? What is its
rate? Is it open for non citizens (Hopefully, I'll be a citizen in 2
years or so)? Ideally, I would like something involving little bit of
design

There is no design work that I have ever heard about in the Navy, perhaps
in Buships somewhere. Mosty, your job is to keep things working.

(I hope to pass PE exam in the future, and I need a design
experience to be registered as a professional engineer).

Do that! Look for a job in the public sector. They are out there. For
example: You could be in charge of the traffic signal shop for a large county
and move your way right up if you wanted to. I knew a guy just like you who
worked for South Florida Flood control happily in charge of a bunch of
electronics technicians who designed his own microwave control circuits for the
big water gates.


4) Assuming that I will like the service, will be good at it, will get
my citizenship and will decide to become an officer: a) what is max
age for applicants to an officer school? b) will I be required to
fulfill my enlistment obligations prior to applying to a school?

A) Don't know
B) Typically, no

I also once joined the Navy with the idea of "working my way up to officer"
It was increadibly niave for me (but I was young then) it would be stupid for
you for a range of reasons.

Good Luck
Vaughn

On 9/16/04 3:29 AM, in article
, "Atcrossroad"
wrote:

My questions:

1) Is 30 y.o. is too old to be a sailor? I know navy is OK with 30y.o.
sailors, but….will I look like a freak among early 20th crowd?

I know a few 30 year old E-3's--not so square peg as you might think.

2) Have you ever seen a Ph.D. enlisting as a sailor? Do you think it
will be better for me not to mention my Ph.D. at all: a) to avoid
future pecking along the line "let's see how smart you really are" b)
not to be an unofficial poster child for a loser. How thoroughly
background check is done? Will such an omission be counted against me
if discovered?

I know of no Ph.D.'s, but on the order of 25% of enlistees have 4-year
degrees. You will have to account for your history, so you'd better mention
your degree and all post-doc jobs. If you don't, you could be canned for
fraudulent enlistment later on. I'd use it sparingly amongst my buddies on
the ship though for the reasons you mentioned.

3) What is the most challenging electronics field in navy? What is its
rate? Is it open for non citizens (Hopefully, I'll be a citizen in 2
years or so)? Ideally, I would like something involving little bit of
design (I hope to pass PE exam in the future, and I need a design
experience to be registered as a professional engineer).

Avionics Technician or Electronics Technician, I'd guess--although there are
probably a few out there that I know nothing of--here's the kicker though:
All of the rates (at least in aviation) that work with electronics (like AT
or ET), also require a security clearance, and hence, U.S. citizenship.
Your best bet would be nuke power... Also requires a clearance.

4) Assuming that I will like the service, will be good at it, will get
my citizenship and will decide to become an officer: a) what is max
age for applicants to an officer school? b) will I be required to
fulfill my enlistment obligations prior to applying to a school?

Your plan is flawed. You will not find happiness in the Navy--especially as
an enlisted man because:

a. You won't get into a rate that is challenging enough for you because you
won't be able to get the clearance (non-U.S. Citizen), so you'll be stuck in
a more "blue collar" rate.

b. You're over-qualified. Remember this, you'll spend about the first year
of your enlistment--even after A-school--cleaning heads, cleaning berthing,
emptying trash, scouring pots in the scullery etc... If you're unhappy with
your post-doc jobs, what makes you think you'll enjoy taking grief from some
Second Class Petty Officer who's 8 years younger than you about how lousy
you are at scrubbing pots and pans?

5) Are those with earned college degrees qualified for the Navy
college funds?

Yes, but not in arrears--i.e. You're on your own for the education you've
purchased already. Do you really need MORE education?

6) In army, enlisted college graduates fresh out of a boot camp get
higher rank than HS graduates do. Does anything like that exist in
navy?

Has everything to do with your performance through boot camp and then in
your follow-on technical training (A-school). Some small top percentage
come out as E-3's.

Thanks to anyone who'll bother to reply.

Look, your best bet is NOT to enlist. Get your citizenship first and either
jump into the Navy or Air Force as an officer OR go to someplace like Eglin
AFB, NAS Pax River, MD, or NAWS China Lake, CA and get a challenging
technical job as a civilian engineer (civil servant). The pay will be
decent, and the satisfaction is great because you'll be working with cutting
edge weapons systems--hands on--an engineer's dream.

I know the China Lake folks are usually looking for engineers because they
can't find enough people who want to live there.

--Woody

If you can't find an acceptable in engineering with a PHD, don't bother
trying to make "it" in the Navy. Try the Airforce.


"Atcrossroad" wrote in message
om...
It's quite loser's story but, hell, I'll not fall lower by telling it.


I've made a big mistake in my life, namely, I've got a Ph.D. in
engineering from a second tier graduate program. Since graduation, I
had a string of sh*t pay, no benefits, long hours, dead-end postdocs
("permanently" temporary research slave jobs for 50% of the fresh (and
not so fresh) Ph.D.s who cannot find a real job). Well, me (and many,
many others) had/have no other options. During postdocing (brain
numbing, overall pointless, BS peddling to cheat a buck from Uncle Sam
kind of a job), I have developed a strong aversion to the (academic)
research trade. I cannot stand it (even in an exchange for a
theoretical lofty paycheck). Had I liked it, I would have roughed
through everything, but...research is for the single-minded zombies
with talents of a used car salesman. And it's not me.
I really like engineering, but with my degree and experience, entry
level engineering jobs are reliably out of my reach. I am
overqualified for entry-level jobs (too old also), and I am
unqualified for experience-only jobs. 1 year of unsuccessful applying
for all kinds of engineering jobs is enough to realize that there is
nothing for me in the "real world". Do not get me wrong, I have good
GPAs (3.9 both in undergrad and grad schools), I have 10 or so
publications in the premiere science journals, I have a good research
resume and good recommendations. But all that is not enough to land an
engineering job these days.

What to do?

I do not have a formal degree in EE, but I do like electronics and I
do know a lot about it. It's my true passion. I'd like to pursue a
career in electronics (desirably engineering, but technician jobs are
OK too - more difficult to offshore). It happens that I like sea, I
like (to learn about, at least) navy, ships, ship's weaponry, naval
history. I would like to try something different, new and manly like a
military service. Clock is ticking. In 4 years (I'm 30 y.o. now), I'll
not have a military option. So, I am considering enlisting to navy.
Local recruiters are not making their quotas, I was forgiven my 10
extra pounds. I think I'll be able to pass physical. I have the right
attitude to get through a boot camp too. Also, I am a permanent
resident i.e. an officer school is not an option (I am not sure if I
would be allowed to enter an officer school in such a ripe age,
anyway).

My questions:

1) Is 30 y.o. is too old to be a sailor? I know navy is OK with 30y.o.
sailors, but..will I look like a freak among early 20th crowd?
2) Have you ever seen a Ph.D. enlisting as a sailor? Do you think it
will be better for me not to mention my Ph.D. at all: a) to avoid
future pecking along the line "let's see how smart you really are" b)
not to be an unofficial poster child for a loser. How thoroughly
background check is done? Will such an omission be counted against me
if discovered?
3) What is the most challenging electronics field in navy? What is its
rate? Is it open for non citizens (Hopefully, I'll be a citizen in 2
years or so)? Ideally, I would like something involving little bit of
design (I hope to pass PE exam in the future, and I need a design
experience to be registered as a professional engineer).
4) Assuming that I will like the service, will be good at it, will get
my citizenship and will decide to become an officer: a) what is max
age for applicants to an officer school? b) will I be required to
fulfill my enlistment obligations prior to applying to a school?
5) Are those with earned college degrees qualified for the Navy
college funds?
6) In army, enlisted college graduates fresh out of a boot camp get
higher rank than HS graduates do. Does anything like that exist in
navy?

Thanks to anyone who'll bother to reply.

Atcrossroad wrote:
It's quite loser's story but, hell, I'll not fall lower by telling it.


I've made a big mistake in my life, namely, I've got a Ph.D. in
engineering from a second tier graduate program.

What to do?

I do not have a formal degree in EE, but I do like electronics and I
do know a lot about it. It's my true passion. I'd like to pursue a
career in electronics (desirably engineering, but technician jobs are
OK too – more difficult to offshore). It happens that I like sea, I
like (to learn about, at least) navy, ships, ship's weaponry, naval
history. I would like to try something different, new and manly like a
military service. Clock is ticking. In 4 years (I'm 30 y.o. now), I'll
not have a military option. So, I am considering enlisting to navy.
Local recruiters are not making their quotas, I was forgiven my 10
extra pounds. I think I'll be able to pass physical. I have the right
attitude to get through a boot camp too. Also, I am a permanent
resident i.e. an officer school is not an option (I am not sure if I
would be allowed to enter an officer school in such a ripe age,
anyway).

My questions:

1) Is 30 y.o. is too old to be a sailor? I know navy is OK with 30y.o.
sailors, but….will I look like a freak among early 20th crowd?

In the reserves, we get a lot of 30-somethings coming into the ranks, as
they wrestle with exactly the same issues your are. Including more than
one with a PhD.

2) Have you ever seen a Ph.D. enlisting as a sailor?

Yes, in the reserves. On active duty we had a Chief who had earned his
PhD at some point in his career.

Do you think it
will be better for me not to mention my Ph.D. at all: a) to avoid
future pecking along the line "let's see how smart you really are" b)
not to be an unofficial poster child for a loser. How thoroughly
background check is done? Will such an omission be counted against me
if discovered?

No need to hide it. Be proud but not arrogant.

3) What is the most challenging electronics field in navy? What is its
rate?

Nuke power.

Is it open for non citizens (Hopefully, I'll be a citizen in 2
years or so)?

Probably not.

Ideally, I would like something involving little bit of
design (I hope to pass PE exam in the future, and I need a design
experience to be registered as a professional engineer).

Design? Maybe the "McGyver" sort. But I am a firm believer than
designers who have used the equipment are better than those who haven't.

4) Assuming that I will like the service, will be good at it, will get
my citizenship and will decide to become an officer: a) what is max
age for applicants to an officer school? b) will I be required to
fulfill my enlistment obligations prior to applying to a school?

Not sure on max age. You will not need to fulfill your enlisted
requirement prior.

5) Are those with earned college degrees qualified for the Navy
college funds?

Yes. I used my GI Bill to fund my PhD. You could use it to fund getting
your pilot's license or A&P license also. Attend school for Real Estate
license. Go to Divinity School. etc. Certain restrictions apply.


6) In army, enlisted college graduates fresh out of a boot camp get
higher rank than HS graduates do. Does anything like that exist in
navy?

Yes, talk to recruiter.

The Navy Reserve is a great way to jump in. you'll find a real
smorgasbord of folks civilian career-wise in there. In my unit we have
college students (Officer), cops (Es)wall street stock brokers (Petty
Officer) and small business owners (Chiefs) all working together.
Fantastic way to network. you can segue into active duty. Come in at an
advanced rate. Give it a look.

Sounds like you're not married. I'd cut your past loose and jump in both
feet and sign up for something risky and dangerous, to take you out of
your comfort zone. Full steam ahead, adrenaline, all that stuff. You can
sit in a chair and let your ass get fat later. Do the hard thing, cause
its the most fun!

With your qualifcations , An Officer in the SeaBee,s . Go for it . Great
Career .

"Atcrossroad" wrote...

1) Is 30 y.o. is too old to be a sailor? I know navy is OK with 30y.o.
sailors, but..will I look like a freak among early 20th crowd?

Nope. You won't be the first or the last...


2) Have you ever seen a Ph.D. enlisting as a sailor? Do you think it
will be better for me not to mention my Ph.D. at all: a) to avoid
future pecking along the line "let's see how smart you really are" b)
not to be an unofficial poster child for a loser. How thoroughly
background check is done? Will such an omission be counted against me
if discovered?

I've known a few officers who had PhD's prior to signing up, and several
enlisted guys with Masters' degrees, but no enlisted PhD's.

Don't lie or omit any relevant facts -- it will haunt you forever.


3) What is the most challenging electronics field in navy? What is its
rate? Is it open for non citizens (Hopefully, I'll be a citizen in 2
years or so)? Ideally, I would like something involving little bit of
design (I hope to pass PE exam in the future, and I need a design
experience to be registered as a professional engineer).

If you want to get into design, I think the Air Force is the better choice.
They have dedicated Science and Engineering corps in their officer ranks, but
the Navy does not. The biggest problem would be citizenship -- most or all of
them require security clearances that are not available to non-citizens. Even
the enlisted jobs that deal with electronics require security clearances...


4) Assuming that I will like the service, will be good at it, will get
my citizenship and will decide to become an officer: a) what is max
age for applicants to an officer school? b) will I be required to
fulfill my enlistment obligations prior to applying to a school?

I would not recommend you enlist for a job that does not require a security
clearance. You'll likely be less happy than you are now. Wait until you get
your citizenship.


5) Are those with earned college degrees qualified for the Navy
college funds?
6) In army, enlisted college graduates fresh out of a boot camp get
higher rank than HS graduates do. Does anything like that exist in
navy?

Check with a local recruiter for actual options available to you now.
Requirements change often...

Also talk specifically with an Officer Programs recruiter. The regular
recruiters will often not talk up the officer programs because of the quotas you
already mentioned...

(Atcrossroad) wrote in
om:


I do not have a formal degree in EE, but I do like electronics and I
do know a lot about it. It's my true passion. I'd like to pursue a
career in electronics (desirably engineering, but technician jobs are
OK too – more difficult to offshore). It happens that I like sea, I
like (to learn about, at least) navy, ships, ship's weaponry, naval
history. I would like to try something different, new and manly like a
military service.

I have worked for and at several Navy labs, including Naval Surface
Warfare Center Philadelphia, Dahlgren, and Port Hueneme. Assuming
you can get a clearance, you could get a job that would have zero
chance of off-shoring.

As far as enlisted, I had about a dozen working for me at Pt Hueneme --
these were all Fire Control Technicians who had completed their
"prescribed sea tours" (need to check but IIRC around 4 years these
days), except for the chiefs of course. While they weren't there
primarily to do design, they did work in some design areas, especially
in maintainability and useability. In other words, in system engineering
tasks. One of my guys (an FC2) got selected for enlisted commissioning
program. He had already completed 2 yrs via tuition aid, and completed
his degree at U Minn and then got commissioned.

scott s.
..

"Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" wrote in message ...



Look, your best bet is NOT to enlist. Get your citizenship first and either
jump into the Navy or Air Force as an officer OR go to someplace like Eglin
AFB, NAS Pax River, MD, or NAWS China Lake, CA and get a challenging
technical job as a civilian engineer (civil servant). The pay will be
decent, and the satisfaction is great because you'll be working with cutting
edge weapons systems--hands on--an engineer's dream.

The best advice so far, but....

With the exception that his story was just vague enough to raise
flags. PhD in what? He stated electronics was just a hobby and he
doesn't have the degree in it. So is he an ME? AE? Choo-Choo
engineer? Sanitation Engineer?
Second tier program? How so? We have lots of S&E's from all sorts
of schools and that is rarely the most important criteria for getting
a decent job if you are competent in your field. Obviously he can't
be talking about only looking for the best jobs out there or I
wouldn't think enlistment in the Mil would fit any of his desires...
Pay? Job challenge? Environment? Opportunity?

Sorry, the story is so vague and downright strange I would pass on
it if I was in a hiring position. I apologize in advance to the
author, but my initial impression of the post was that it was bait for
an upcoming troll or a fabrication from a very young (naive) person
creating a scenario for whatever reason.
I've worked with far too many PhD's and advanced degree Engineers to
believe he can't get a job in his 'field' (yet undefined). It's
certainly plausible he can't find the job he _wants_, but that's
something different. Enlisting in the Navy would be as far from a
rational solution as digging a hole and sitting in it because you
issed your bus. Bizarre.




I know the China Lake folks are usually looking for engineers because they
can't find enough people who want to live there.

--Woody

Yep, they just can't stand all the green fields and the huge lake
and perfect weather. Fishing, sailing, skiiing et al. on the lake,
that's the pamphlet I saw ...




BB

On 16 Sep 2004 14:37:30 -0700, (BlackBeard)
proclaimed:

Sorry, the story is so vague and downright strange I would pass on
it if I was in a hiring position.


When I was doing a college recruiting assignment for Big Blue I will
never forget one sentence on an applicants resume:

"I know now more than I ever have."

I passed on him.