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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28



 
 
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  #31  
Old October 27th 06, 01:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 47
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

Why has nobody included in any comparisons the Diana 2, Lak 17 and 19,
SZD-56-2, and the 304CZ ...


Because the discussion was originally about a few specific 15M standard
class ships, and has mostly stayed on topic. A broader comparison of
gliders would need its own news group!

~ted/2NO (former 304CZ owner)

  #32  
Old October 27th 06, 07:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Greef
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Posts: 62
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

Robert Danewid wrote:
Perhaps pilot skill was involved in the results (especially for SS)??

Just my 3c worth....

Robert

Bruce Greef wrote:

Andy wrote:

Ben Flewett wrote:
ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely
does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8
(including high speed range). In fact, I would rate
it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison
to the D2 and LS8.


I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that
conclusion.

Andy

Having won the Omarama Grand Prix, with a current world ranking of #86
- highest IGC ranking of #7 I believe. Contested World and European
contests in Discus 2s

I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations.

A quote from Pete Harvey - UK Racing pilot - on losing day 2 at
http://www.gp06.com/race_diary/diary_day2.htm
“It’s so frustrating to be beaten at the last moment by the glider
type, not pilot skill.” The Discus overtakes the LS8 on final glide."

From the results "SS" - ASW28 never got close.

just my 2c worth...

For Referrence - a simple google search would get you to a ~2700 hits
for Ben Flewett.
http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competi...cle.php?id=183


http://www.fai.org/gliding/ben_flewett
http://www.gliding.co.nz/



Agreed - on the SS part I can't comment because I do not know Ms Pederson's
skill level. This was not a bunch of beginners (like me) though - so I am sure
she is a very competent contest pilot to have made the selection process...

So - skill probably dominates, and conversely the best pilots tend to choose the
best equipment for the conditions. If it is about speed, the Discus appears to
have a miniscule edge. When seconds count this is important.

Personally - For most people it is more important how you and the machine work.
  #33  
Old October 27th 06, 10:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Nick Olson
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Posts: 29
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

At 20:55 26 October 2006, Ruud wrote:
'BTW, there are only few ASW28 for sale, while you
can fill oceans with second hand LS8 and D2.'

Could have something to do with how many have been
produced!
Roughly twice as many Discus 2's as ASW28's , and probably
3 times as many LS8's. (all models).
Seem to be quite a few 28's for sale on segelflug.de
at the moment!

Face it the 28 has just not had the contest success
of the Discus 2 or LS8 - even Waibel admitted it's
intial sales were a disappointment (but improved by
the addition of the 28-18 model).



  #34  
Old October 27th 06, 10:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Nick Olson
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Posts: 29
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

At 20:55 26 October 2006, Ruud wrote:
'BTW, there are only few ASW28 for sale, while you
can fill oceans with second hand LS8 and D2.'

Could have something to do with how many have been
produced!
Roughly twice as many Discus 2's as ASW28's , and probably
3 times as many LS8's. (all models).
Seem to be quite a few 28's for sale on segelflug.de
at the moment!

Face it the 28 has just not had the contest success
of the Discus 2 or LS8 - even Waibel admitted it's
intial sales were a disappointment (but improved by
the addition of the 28-18 model).



  #35  
Old October 27th 06, 05:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Papa3
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Posts: 444
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

I spoke to a former World Champion for his observations prior to buying
my LS8. His comment was that forgiving handling, comfort, and good
performance over a wide range of conditions was the primary
consideration for serious competition. A national or World competition
is a pretty draining experience, and I'm partial to LS for the great
and forgiving handling. I do tend to agree that it gives up a little
bit to a well flown D2A on the high speed end during dolphin flight or
"whifferdilling" (though curiously not on the ridge, where I can run
right with them at 100kts or more; maybe a function of my "superior"
wingloading over the guys who can typically squeeze into an A model
:-). But, since most contests are won and lost on the weak days, I
have to say that I would favor the ship that does best there. I will
have a chance to fly a D2B model soon, and it'll be interesting to see
how that feels compared to my trusty steed.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)




Owain Walters wrote:

I own a Discus 2a but I am yet to learn how to fly
it properly (I think Ben says you need 200 hrs to be
kind as he knows I have about 100 hrs and I fly it
terribly!). I fly in the UK and have on occasion (!)
flown in some pretty weak conditions. The ASW28 is
the only new glider that I have not struggled to out
climb. I feel the LS8 is the best weak weather Std
Class glider. I think that the D2a is noticeably better
than any other Std class glider at high speed.


Owain

PS. Why are people so interested with looking at their
tail?
PPS. You will notice I say "think" and "feel" a lot.
I have not measured anything but my views are from
my experience and anecdotal evidence.


  #36  
Old October 27th 06, 09:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Robert Danewid
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Posts: 25
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

There are about 120 000 glider pilots in the world.

At the last WGC in Sweden (where I was the comp director)
there were 116 pilots from 25 nations competing. Let us
assume that there are 500 serious competition on an average
in these 25 countries. That gives us a total of 12 500
pilots who are serious comp pilots or about 10% of the whole
gliding community - and I amsure this is an overestimation.
Now I ask my self why the other 90% would prefer a glider
with a little preformance advantage in which you are not
even able to wear your shoes to fit in.

I think what you really should look for is not only
performance, but flight characteristic, comfort, pilot
safety, craftmanship etc etc.

On the other hand, we glider pilots have always been a
liitle bit crazy.

But presonally I will never take of my shoes just to fit in
a glider! Sorry Ben.

Robert


Owain Walters wrote:
If you fly your glider in weak lift conditions most
of the time, the
picture will be a complete different one.



I own a Discus 2a but I am yet to learn how to fly
it properly (I think Ben says you need 200 hrs to be
kind as he knows I have about 100 hrs and I fly it
terribly!). I fly in the UK and have on occasion (!)
flown in some pretty weak conditions. The ASW28 is
the only new glider that I have not struggled to out
climb. I feel the LS8 is the best weak weather Std
Class glider. I think that the D2a is noticeably better
than any other Std class glider at high speed.


BTW, there are only few ASW28 for sale, while you can
fill oceans with
second hand LS8 and D2.



I think that is a factually incorrect and certainly
misleading. There does appear to be a glut of LS8's
at the moment but I know of only 1 D2a. On the flipside
of that, I know of at least 3 ASW28's that have been
for sale for over a year. Why is that?

I think they are overpriced and underperforming.


If you´re looking for a ASW28, look have a look at:
http://home.planet.nl/~holsw007/asw28/
;-)



They need all the help you can give them.......;-)

Owain

PS. Why are people so interested with looking at their
tail?
PPS. You will notice I say “think” and “feel” a lot.
I have not measured anything but my views are from
my experience and anecdotal evidence.





  #37  
Old October 28th 06, 03:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom Smith
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Posts: 2
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

Jack

http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/carreragt06_11.jpg

http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/turd.jpg

I hope my visual comparison is helpful.

Tom

At 14:42 23 October 2006, Jack wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote:
Jack wrote:
Enough already!

How about the DG-303?


You asking or suggesting?



I'd like to see the DG-303 included in these comparisons.


Jack






  #38  
Old October 28th 06, 06:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Marc Ramsey
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Posts: 207
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

Tom Smith wrote:
Jack

http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/carreragt06_11.jpg

http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/turd.jpg

I hope my visual comparison is helpful.


Thanks for pointing this out 8^)

It does bring up an something I learned, though, during the period when
I found racing gliders to be enjoyable. The difference in performance
between, say, a DG-303 and a Discus 2A, is not enough to overcome poor
piloting skills on a given day. On those days when things were clicking
for me, and I was making the "right" choices, my turd could stay with or
outrun everyone else in the standard class field. On a more typical
day, I could be flying the only Discus 3 around, and still end up at the
back of the pack. In my opinion, most of those obsessed with
determining the "best" standard (or any) class glider, would be better
off figuring out what they would be most comfortable flying,
independent of whatever slight deficit in performance they might suffer
from...

Marc
  #39  
Old October 28th 06, 07:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jack
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Posts: 86
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

Tom Smith wrote:
Jack

http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/carreragt06_11.jpg

http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/turd.jpg

I hope my visual comparison is helpful.



Tom,

I'm happy to see that you share my view that the DG-303 is incomparably
better than the rest of the standard class field, and that any disparity
in competition achievement is probably due to the relative quality of
the pilots and/or numbers of aircraft built.

Your equating the DG-303 with the 2006 Carerra GT in their respective
fields was apt indeed, though the "turd" reference was perhaps a little
harsh on the competition.

I note that you are not a member of SSA. From what material does one
usually build a glider in your corner of the universe?


Jack

---------------------------------------
At 14:42 23 October 2006, Jack wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote:
Jack wrote:
Enough already!

How about the DG-303?
You asking or suggesting?


I'd like to see the DG-303 included in these comparisons.


Jack






  #40  
Old October 29th 06, 05:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom Smith
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Posts: 2
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

Tom,

I'm happy to see that you share my view that the DG-303
is incomparably
better than the rest of the standard class field, and
that any disparity
in competition achievement is probably due to the relative
quality of
the pilots and/or numbers of aircraft built.


Jack,

You’re clearly suffering from a serious case of delusion!

Your equating the DG-303 with the 2006 Carerra GT in
their respective
fields was apt indeed, though the 'turd' reference
was perhaps a little
harsh on the competition.

I note that you are not a member of SSA. From what
material does one
usually build a glider in your corner of the universe?


Funny you should ask; the rest of the universe has
been wondering the same thing about your corner. We
had concluded that your glider manufacturers had discovered
how to isolate and work the ugly atom. Perhaps you
could confirm or dispel these rumours.

Many thanks,

Tom






 




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