Nimbus 4DT accident 31 July 2000 in Spain.

Marian Aldenhövel wrote:
Hi,

I suspect that it would be much easier for your typical club to train
and line up qualified winch operators than finding tow pilots.


Where I fly every student is required to start learning how to operate the
winch as soon as he or she goes solo.

As a result we have lots of winch drivers.

And I think it is a good idea anyway. You learn what a good launch looks
and feels like from the other side.

Ciao, MM
We have a better rule - no solo in glider before solo on winch...

--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.

On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:39:35 UTC, Bruce wrote:

: We have a better rule - no solo in glider before solo on winch...

It's not a bad idea, but it can and does (in my experience) lead to
clubs with large numbers of not-very-good winch drivers. I'd much
rather be launched by someone who has done dozens or hundreds of
launches than someone who does a few every few weeks to satisfy club
rules.

Ian, winch-but-not-any-other-sort-of-instructor

Ian Johnston wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:39:35 UTC, Bruce wrote:

: We have a better rule - no solo in glider before solo on winch...

It's not a bad idea, but it can and does (in my experience) lead to
clubs with large numbers of not-very-good winch drivers. I'd much
rather be launched by someone who has done dozens or hundreds of
launches than someone who does a few every few weeks to satisfy club
rules.

Ian, winch-but-not-any-other-sort-of-instructor
Ian

We average around 26-35 launches a day. With a small club and the instructors
doing less winching (although everyone including the CFI drives winch) this
means that our students, and solo pilots get to do plenty of winch driving.

Instructors can expect to spend some time on the winch - maybe 5 or 10 launches,
once every quarter. Although we have one who volunteers just about ever time he
is there - he just loves playing tunes with that V8...
The others will share the launching, on average doing around 8 launches on any
given day. It is not onerous, everyone shares the work and pitches in, and the
experience on the winch means the low time pilots have a better understanding of
what is going on. There are days when one of the more experienced types installs
him/herself in the winch and makes the day go smoothly, and the inexperienced
types get a benchmark to aim for. But if we did that every week we would soon
lose the "really good" winch drivers. Spending a few hours seeing how well you
can get the winch to perform, every now and then is one thing,(and can be very
rewarding) but we all go to the airfield to fly...

Our experience is that there are a few individuals who never make satisfactory
winch drivers. With few exceptions they also struggle with the flying part. You
learn a lot observing someone on the winch. And driving the winch in all the
different conditions accelerates learning, he may not be flying, but the winch
driver is intimately involved in every launch.

--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.

Your comments fit in my own experience at a fairly small club I've spent
most of my time at.

With around 60 members there are only about 8 to 10 who are "cleared" for
the winch.
Instructors do not winch unless it's a special occasion or a really quiet
day. There really
isn't enough of them to waste on the winch anyway!

Putting someone on the winch for a full day has/is resulting in loosing
these people to
other activities (i.e. not gliding). The other problem with such a low
number of trained
people is that the winch duty comes around every 4 weeks. And also what
happens is
that if you turn up to fly and the duty man isn't there, you end up on the
winch all day
again. If you've gone to fly and end up working, it's extremely
demotivating.

I agree with your thoughts that a winch man is intimately involved in every
launch, its a very
responsible job and takes quite a bit of skill to complete correctly. As to
the point that
some individuals don't make good winchmen, absolutely right every time!
These
people seem uncordinated and unaware of what's happening around them, and
they seem
to fly that way. Almost an accident waiting to happen I guess.

Cheers, Malcolm..

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
Ian Johnston wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:39:35 UTC, Bruce wrote:

: We have a better rule - no solo in glider before solo on winch...

It's not a bad idea, but it can and does (in my experience) lead to clubs
with large numbers of not-very-good winch drivers. I'd much rather be
launched by someone who has done dozens or hundreds of launches than
someone who does a few every few weeks to satisfy club rules.

Ian, winch-but-not-any-other-sort-of-instructor
Ian

We average around 26-35 launches a day. With a small club and the
instructors doing less winching (although everyone including the CFI
drives winch) this means that our students, and solo pilots get to do
plenty of winch driving.

Instructors can expect to spend some time on the winch - maybe 5 or 10
launches, once every quarter. Although we have one who volunteers just
about ever time he is there - he just loves playing tunes with that V8...
The others will share the launching, on average doing around 8 launches on
any given day. It is not onerous, everyone shares the work and pitches in,
and the experience on the winch means the low time pilots have a better
understanding of what is going on. There are days when one of the more
experienced types installs him/herself in the winch and makes the day go
smoothly, and the inexperienced types get a benchmark to aim for. But if
we did that every week we would soon lose the "really good" winch drivers.
Spending a few hours seeing how well you can get the winch to perform,
every now and then is one thing,(and can be very rewarding) but we all go
to the airfield to fly...

Our experience is that there are a few individuals who never make
satisfactory winch drivers. With few exceptions they also struggle with
the flying part. You learn a lot observing someone on the winch. And
driving the winch in all the different conditions accelerates learning, he
may not be flying, but the winch driver is intimately involved in every
launch.

--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.

On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 18:32:35 UTC, Bruce wrote:

: We average around 26-35 launches a day. With a small club and the instructors
: doing less winching (although everyone including the CFI drives winch) this
: means that our students, and solo pilots get to do plenty of winch driving.

I reckon it takes at least ten launches, particularly on a windy day,
for a driver to get his/her hand in, and a further ten for them to be
polished. So if you use a couple of drivers a day (am/pm split, maybe)
I'm sure standards will be quite acceptable.

It's places - and I have been there - where driving the winch is seen
as an unpopular chore, so people reluctantly do two or three and then
hand over, where standards really start to slip.

I agree completely about the worth of student pilots learning to
winch, but that has to be balanced against the safety of the launching
operation generally. Incidentally, I wish more (flying) instructors
would drive winches. Many of them have some very peculiar ideas about
what the winch, and the winch driver, can and cannot do!

Ian

--

At 19:42 03 July 2005, Ian Johnston wrote:

I reckon it takes at least ten launches, particularly
on a windy day,
for a driver to get his/her hand in, and a further
ten for them to be
polished.

What?? 20 Launches to get to a 'polished' standard!
(on each day, is this?) Jesus, you have cr*p winch
drivers, or cr*p winch instructors! So this is what
you reckon Ian? Are you winch driver?

So if you use a couple of drivers a day (am/pm split,
maybe)
I'm sure standards will be quite acceptable.
It's places - and I have been there - where driving
the winch is seen
as an unpopular chore, so people reluctantly do two
or three and then
hand over, where standards really start to slip.

Good winch training, makes good winch drivers, just
like flying training, if some winch driver does 10
bad launches, 'to get his/her eye in', I think he would
be on re-training or very poor! (after buying a round
of drinks for everyone he gave a cr*p launch to).

Even our less experienced winch drivers, generally
only take two launches to get their eye in, after good
feedback from the pilots.

I will send you one of our 70+ year old winch drivers
to you (before they get stopped by insurance companies,
EU directives, lack of binoculars, party poopers........)
I'm sure you need them.

Hopefully you have exaggerated the number of launches.
lol

Dave

On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 22:14:27 UTC, Dave Ruttle
wrote:

At 19:42 03 July 2005, Ian Johnston wrote:

I reckon it takes at least ten launches, particularly
on a windy day,
for a driver to get his/her hand in, and a further
ten for them to be
polished.

What?? 20 Launches to get to a 'polished' standard!
(on each day, is this?) Jesus, you have cr*p winch
drivers, or cr*p winch instructors! So this is what
you reckon Ian? Are you winch driver?

I'm a winch driver and a winch instructor. And yes, if it's a windy
day, and you're launching a mixture glass and wood, single and two
seater, I stand completely by what I wrote. Ten or so launches to do
it reasonably well, twenty to be giving bang on, optimum speed,
perfect height launches every time.

Of course it's possible to do some sort of launch without taking much
care over it. If you don't fly at a club which takes winch driving
seriously you probably don't know how good it can be.

Good winch training, makes good winch drivers, just
like flying training, if some winch driver does 10
bad launches, 'to get his/her eye in', I think he would
be on re-training or very poor! (after buying a round
of drinks for everyone he gave a cr*p launch to).

I didn't write "crap launch" and I didn't mean "crap" launch.

And just as with pilots, training is only the beginning. It's
practice, practice, practice after that. I'm certainly not claiming
that it's rocket science, but it is something that can be done
adequately or much better.

In case you were wondering, I am a complete sod to winch drivers when
I'm flying. I pull off for overspeeds without a second's hesitation
(many/most pilots just accept them: they shouldn't) and I don't take
underspeeds either. I invariably refuse to pay for aborted launches,
and when one winch driver told me I should have pulled back (ten feet
in the air) to accelerate I formally complained to his club's safety
officer about his competence and attitude.

Even our less experienced winch drivers, generally
only take two launches to get their eye in, after good
feedback from the pilots.

If you are happy with those standards, fine.

Ian

Is it my understanding that the winch drivers
at these operations make NOTHING? No money at all?

Hmmm...in the USA, even the clubs where the
aerotow pilots do it for free, there is still SOME
benefit. Either they are building time, or they get
to
rent the towplane for cheap on non-soaring days,
or they get free training to be towpilots (which they
can then use to prove experience at a for-profit operation).

I would think that at least SOME of the winch operations
pay SOMETHING. Even $1 or $2 a launch...

If not, I'm not surprised it is unpopular duty. Do
they
get a free BBQ dinner or something at least?

At 19:00 03 July 2005, Malcolm Austin wrote:
Your comments fit in my own experience at a fairly
small club I've spent
most of my time at.

With around 60 members there are only about 8 to 10
who are 'cleared' for
the winch.
Instructors do not winch unless it's a special occasion
or a really quiet
day. There really
isn't enough of them to waste on the winch anyway!

Putting someone on the winch for a full day has/is
resulting in loosing
these people to
other activities (i.e. not gliding). The other problem
with such a low
number of trained
people is that the winch duty comes around every 4
weeks. And also what
happens is
that if you turn up to fly and the duty man isn't there,
you end up on the
winch all day
again. If you've gone to fly and end up working, it's
extremely
demotivating.

I agree with your thoughts that a winch man is intimately
involved in every
launch, its a very
responsible job and takes quite a bit of skill to complete
correctly. As to
the point that
some individuals don't make good winchmen, absolutely
right every time!
These
people seem uncordinated and unaware of what's happening
around them, and
they seem
to fly that way. Almost an accident waiting to happen
I guess.

Cheers, Malcolm..

'Bruce' wrote in message
...
Ian Johnston wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:39:35 UTC, Bruce wrote:

: We have a better rule - no solo in glider before
solo on winch...

It's not a bad idea, but it can and does (in my experience)
lead to clubs
with large numbers of not-very-good winch drivers.
I'd much rather be
launched by someone who has done dozens or hundreds
of launches than
someone who does a few every few weeks to satisfy
club rules.

Ian, winch-but-not-any-other-sort-of-instructor
Ian

We average around 26-35 launches a day. With a small
club and the
instructors doing less winching (although everyone
including the CFI
drives winch) this means that our students, and solo
pilots get to do
plenty of winch driving.

Instructors can expect to spend some time on the winch
- maybe 5 or 10
launches, once every quarter. Although we have one
who volunteers just
about ever time he is there - he just loves playing
tunes with that V8...
The others will share the launching, on average doing
around 8 launches on
any given day. It is not onerous, everyone shares
the work and pitches in,
and the experience on the winch means the low time
pilots have a better
understanding of what is going on. There are days
when one of the more
experienced types installs him/herself in the winch
and makes the day go
smoothly, and the inexperienced types get a benchmark
to aim for. But if
we did that every week we would soon lose the 'really
good' winch drivers.
Spending a few hours seeing how well you can get the
winch to perform,
every now and then is one thing,(and can be very rewarding)
but we all go
to the airfield to fly...

Our experience is that there are a few individuals
who never make
satisfactory winch drivers. With few exceptions they
also struggle with
the flying part. You learn a lot observing someone
on the winch. And
driving the winch in all the different conditions
accelerates learning, he
may not be flying, but the winch driver is intimately
involved in every
launch.

--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.



Mark J. Boyd

On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 22:35:33 UTC, M B
wrote:

Is it my understanding that the winch drivers
at these operations make NOTHING? No money at all?

The club at which I am a winch instructor allows the duty winch driver
to fly (once) in a club glider whenever s/he wishes during their
stint, bypassing the list. That flight is free.

Ian

Aha! That seems very civilized. Good.

At 22:54 03 July 2005, Ian Johnston wrote:
On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 22:35:33 UTC, M B
wrote:

Is it my understanding that the winch drivers
at these operations make NOTHING? No money at all?

The club at which I am a winch instructor allows the
duty winch driver
to fly (once) in a club glider whenever s/he wishes
during their
stint, bypassing the list. That flight is free.

Ian

Mark J. Boyd