Nimbus 4DT accident 31 July 2000 in Spain.

"Malcolm Austin" wrote in message
...
Your comments fit in my own experience at a fairly small club I've spent
most of my time at.

With around 60 members there are only about 8 to 10 who are "cleared" for
the winch. Instructors do not winch unless it's a special occasion or a
really quiet
day. There really isn't enough of them to waste on the winch anyway!

Still, isn't it a good idea for an instructor to master the winch if only to
teach it better from the other end of the wire?


Putting someone on the winch for a full day has/is resulting in loosing
these people to other activities (i.e. not gliding). The other problem
with such a low
number of trained people is that the winch duty comes around every 4
weeks. And also what
happens is that if you turn up to fly and the duty man isn't there, you
end up on the
winch all day again. If you've gone to fly and end up working, it's
extremely
demotivating.


Part of the problem is some winches are really uncomfortable to operate. To
get winch drivers, make the winch driver seat the most comfortable one on
the airfield. Enclose the cab, add heating and air conditioning or whatever
creature comforts desired.

Bill Daniels

M B wrote:
Is it my understanding that the winch drivers
at these operations make NOTHING? No money at all?

Hmmm...in the USA, even the clubs where the
aerotow pilots do it for free, there is still SOME
benefit. Either they are building time, or they get
to
rent the towplane for cheap on non-soaring days,
or they get free training to be towpilots (which they
can then use to prove experience at a for-profit operation).

I would think that at least SOME of the winch operations
pay SOMETHING. Even $1 or $2 a launch...

If not, I'm not surprised it is unpopular duty. Do
they
get a free BBQ dinner or something at least?



We don't pay for instruction, tractor driving, making meals, fixing
gliders, mowing the runways, retrieving gliders etc - why should we pay
the winch driver. All these duties are part of the smooth running of
the club and if somebody does not want to do his part - then he will
not fit into the club atmosphere.

All members are expected to go solo on the winch just after going solo
on the glider. The result is that there are plenty of experienced winch
drivers so nobody ends up spending the whole day on the winch. We
prefer to train on the winch only after the student has gone solo on
the glider because we wish the winch driver to have a fair knowledge of
what is going through the pilot's mind at each stage of the launch.

We pay the equivalent of US$3.33 per launch - so there is no spare
money to pay somebody to drive the winch without putting the costs up
for everybody. The result is the best glider fleet in Africa and
probably the cheapest rates in the world. Where else can you fly an ASW
20 at US$0.15/minute.

Clinton
LAK 12
www.ggc.co.za

Ian Johnston wrote:
On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 18:32:35 UTC, Bruce wrote:

: We average around 26-35 launches a day. With a small club and the instructors
: doing less winching (although everyone including the CFI drives winch) this
: means that our students, and solo pilots get to do plenty of winch driving.

I reckon it takes at least ten launches, particularly on a windy day,
for a driver to get his/her hand in, and a further ten for them to be
polished. So if you use a couple of drivers a day (am/pm split, maybe)
I'm sure standards will be quite acceptable.

It's places - and I have been there - where driving the winch is seen
as an unpopular chore, so people reluctantly do two or three and then
hand over, where standards really start to slip.

I agree completely about the worth of student pilots learning to
winch, but that has to be balanced against the safety of the launching
operation generally. Incidentally, I wish more (flying) instructors
would drive winches. Many of them have some very peculiar ideas about
what the winch, and the winch driver, can and cannot do!

Ian

That is precisely why we keep everyone driving the winch - that way the person
on either end of the string knows what the other has to contend with.

For what it is worth we very seldom have a potentially dangerous situation (one
resulting in a incident report) By making the winch driving part of the
activities for everyone we remove the grudge factor - it is really hard to bitch
about the "chore" when the instructors do it too.

From a safety perspective I think this is one of the best things we do. It is
amazing the strange behaviour one occasionally comes across down there.
Whereupon a short discussion of the potential problem usually breaks the chain.

--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.

What a sorry bunch.

Our winch drivers are rewarded with a number of things no amount of money can buy.

1] the gratitude of their peers
2] camaraderie
3] an inexhaustible store of tall tales to tell - legendary cable breaks
4] personal growth, and the pleasure of doing a simple job so well nobody
notices (funny how everyone notices a less than perfect one)
5] the knowledge that, having contributed fairly, the rest of the club will do
the same so that your flying remains affordable and fun
6] time for introspection away from the crowd the other end
7] Last but not least a lot of fun

On the subject of money - I just can't think how you could successfully pay the
two (financial) extremes at our club. The artisan who drives the winch for the
sheer fun of the V8s roar, or the big company CEO who does it because he is an
instructor and it is part of the club scene. I suspect both would be insulted if
you offered them money...



M B wrote:
Is it my understanding that the winch drivers
at these operations make NOTHING? No money at all?

Hmmm...in the USA, even the clubs where the
aerotow pilots do it for free, there is still SOME
benefit. Either they are building time, or they get
to
rent the towplane for cheap on non-soaring days,
or they get free training to be towpilots (which they
can then use to prove experience at a for-profit operation).

I would think that at least SOME of the winch operations
pay SOMETHING. Even $1 or $2 a launch...

If not, I'm not surprised it is unpopular duty. Do
they
get a free BBQ dinner or something at least?

At 19:00 03 July 2005, Malcolm Austin wrote:

Your comments fit in my own experience at a fairly
small club I've spent
most of my time at.

With around 60 members there are only about 8 to 10
who are 'cleared' for
the winch.
Instructors do not winch unless it's a special occasion
or a really quiet
day. There really
isn't enough of them to waste on the winch anyway!

Putting someone on the winch for a full day has/is
resulting in loosing
these people to
other activities (i.e. not gliding). The other problem
with such a low
number of trained
people is that the winch duty comes around every 4
weeks. And also what
happens is
that if you turn up to fly and the duty man isn't there,
you end up on the
winch all day
again. If you've gone to fly and end up working, it's
extremely
demotivating.

I agree with your thoughts that a winch man is intimately
involved in every
launch, its a very
responsible job and takes quite a bit of skill to complete
correctly. As to
the point that
some individuals don't make good winchmen, absolutely
right every time!
These
people seem uncordinated and unaware of what's happening
around them, and
they seem
to fly that way. Almost an accident waiting to happen
I guess.

Cheers, Malcolm..

'Bruce' wrote in message
...

Ian Johnston wrote:

On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:39:35 UTC, Bruce wrote:

: We have a better rule - no solo in glider before
solo on winch...

It's not a bad idea, but it can and does (in my experience)
lead to clubs
with large numbers of not-very-good winch drivers.
I'd much rather be
launched by someone who has done dozens or hundreds
of launches than
someone who does a few every few weeks to satisfy
club rules.

Ian, winch-but-not-any-other-sort-of-instructor

Ian

We average around 26-35 launches a day. With a small
club and the
instructors doing less winching (although everyone
including the CFI
drives winch) this means that our students, and solo
pilots get to do
plenty of winch driving.

Instructors can expect to spend some time on the winch
- maybe 5 or 10
launches, once every quarter. Although we have one
who volunteers just
about ever time he is there - he just loves playing
tunes with that V8...
The others will share the launching, on average doing
around 8 launches on
any given day. It is not onerous, everyone shares
the work and pitches in,
and the experience on the winch means the low time
pilots have a better
understanding of what is going on. There are days
when one of the more
experienced types installs him/herself in the winch
and makes the day go
smoothly, and the inexperienced types get a benchmark
to aim for. But if
we did that every week we would soon lose the 'really
good' winch drivers.
Spending a few hours seeing how well you can get the
winch to perform,
every now and then is one thing,(and can be very rewarding)
but we all go
to the airfield to fly...

Our experience is that there are a few individuals
who never make
satisfactory winch drivers. With few exceptions they
also struggle with
the flying part. You learn a lot observing someone
on the winch. And
driving the winch in all the different conditions
accelerates learning, he
may not be flying, but the winch driver is intimately
involved in every
launch.

--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.



Mark J. Boyd




--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.

Ian Johnston wrote:
I stand completely by what I wrote. Ten or so launches
to do
it reasonably well, twenty to be giving bang on, optimum
speed,
perfect height launches every time.

Define reasonable? If this is above safe climbing speed
and below max launch speed, and the winch driver can
hold steady within 2- 5 knots (on a windy day, through
a wind gradient) up the launch, I would call that reasonable,
in fact pretty good, all our winch drivers will achieve
this well within 10 launches, normally within 2.

Of course it's possible to do some sort of launch without
taking much
care over it. If you don't fly at a club which takes
winch driving
seriously you probably don't know how good it can be.

You are implying or inferring - wrongly, that our
winch drivers don't take care.

I didn't write 'crap launch' and I didn't mean 'crap'
launch.

Correct - you didn't, I apologise. I was generalising
with tongue in cheek.

In case you were wondering, I am a complete sod to
winch drivers when
I'm flying. I pull off for overspeeds without a second's
hesitation
I wasn't wondering.......
Hmmm that must be interesting and demoralising for
the winch driver, everytime you hit the wind gradient!
Or are you talking about the last third of the launch,
you didn't make it all that clear?

(many/most pilots just accept them: they shouldn't)
and I don't take
underspeeds either. I invariably refuse to pay for
aborted launches,
and when one winch driver told me I should have pulled
back (ten feet
in the air) to accelerate I formally complained to
his club's safety
officer about his competence and attitude.

Well Ian, hope you never give a 'cr*p (my words not
yours) launch and no one will ever pull off after one
of your polished launches, wouldn't want to put ideas
into your club members heads here I might actually
agree with your last point, especially if the WD was
serious.


If you are happy with those standards, fine.
Again you are inferring that I accept below standard,
complete launches and it isn't fine. My log book shows
over the last 6 months flying, I've had to signal 4
times, for sub standard launches, the WD made good
corrections, yesterday was one of those signals, mainly
because the WD was hot (prob dehydrated) and had been
on the winch for over 3 hours, without a break. He
did the next lau. with his exellent finesse, the one
after was by a new WD (unbeknown to me), who had watched
the lau. I noticed no difference, 1500' 52 - 54KTS
up the launch, yes...... I was happy to accept those
standards.

Maybe it takes your WD's 10 launches to get their eye
in, because they know its you on the other end instructing??


Dave

On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 21:35:50 UTC, Dave Ruttle
wrote:

Ian Johnston wrote:
I stand completely by what I wrote. Ten or so launches
to do
it reasonably well, twenty to be giving bang on, optimum
speed,
perfect height launches every time.

Define reasonable? If this is above safe climbing speed
and below max launch speed, and the winch driver can
hold steady within 2- 5 knots (on a windy day, through
a wind gradient) up the launch, I would call that reasonable,
in fact pretty good, all our winch drivers will achieve
this well within 10 launches, normally within 2.

That sounds reasonable to me. And yes, if it's an easy day and the
gliders are the same each time it can be easy to get your hand/eye in.
But if there's a big wind gradient and you're launching a lot of
different aircraft, it takes longer.

You are implying or inferring - wrongly, that our
winch drivers don't take care.

Not at all. Sorry. Didn't mean to insult them. It's just that they may
not have te opportunity to develop their skills as well as they might:
winch driving is easy to do reasonably and rather harder to do well or
very well - I just think it's worth (the club) taking the trouble to
arrange things so they can be done very well.


In case you were wondering, I am a complete sod to
winch drivers when
I'm flying. I pull off for overspeeds without a second's
hesitation

I wasn't wondering.......
Hmmm that must be interesting and demoralising for
the winch driver, everytime you hit the wind gradient!

If the glider overspeeds when it goes through a wind gradient, either
the pilot or the winch driver is doing something wrong.

Or are you talking about the last third of the launch,
you didn't make it all that clear?

I check the placard. If I go over the winch launch speed I pull off,
at any phase of the launch. I absolutely do not subscribe to the
belief that it's OK to overspeed - and particularly not at the the
time when the glider is dangling 1500' of cable from it.

Well Ian, hope you never give a 'cr*p (my words not
yours) launch and no one will ever pull off after one
of your polished launches, wouldn't want to put ideas
into your club members heads here

Yup, sometimes I get it wrong. I hope pilots would not hang on to a
dangerously fast or slow winch launch to protect me ego. When I do get
it wrong I apologise, sincerely, and try to do better next time. When
I get it right (this is easier on circuit days) I ask the pilot how
the launch was, pay attention to what they say, and try to get it
better next time.

Maybe it takes your WD's 10 launches to get their eye
in, because they know its you on the other end instructing??


I'm only a winch instructor. When I'm at the other end I want to fly!

Ian

Sorry Ian, a winch driver should be able to get it
right first time. I am very disappointed if I do not
get it right on the first launch. Modern winches have
all sorts of aids like setting the glider type/windspeed
which makes it even easier. Like everything else it
is down to training and practice. I spent most of my
first 5 years gliding sitting on a winch. Sadly winch
drivers are not encouraged to attain the same skill
level as pilots, it is viewed as a chore rather than
something which can be done well.

There is a signal that the pilot can use to indicate
overspeed. If the reaction to this signal is not an
immediate reduction in speed then I agree the launch
should be terminated. The weak link in the cable is
there to protect against overstress and overspeed is
certainly less dangerous than too slow.

However good the winch driver flying through a good
thermal on the launch will vary the ias seen by the
pilot but is normally a very transient effect.

At 07:24 05 July 2005, Ian Johnston wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 21:35:50 UTC, Dave Ruttle
wrote:

Ian Johnston wrote:
I stand completely by what I wrote. Ten or so launches
to do
it reasonably well, twenty to be giving bang on, optimum
speed,
perfect height launches every time.

Define reasonable? If this is above safe climbing
speed
and below max launch speed, and the winch driver can
hold steady within 2- 5 knots (on a windy day, through
a wind gradient) up the launch, I would call that
reasonable,
in fact pretty good, all our winch drivers will achieve
this well within 10 launches, normally within 2.

That sounds reasonable to me. And yes, if it's an easy
day and the
gliders are the same each time it can be easy to get
your hand/eye in.
But if there's a big wind gradient and you're launching
a lot of
different aircraft, it takes longer.

You are implying or inferring - wrongly, that our
winch drivers don't take care.

Not at all. Sorry. Didn't mean to insult them. It's
just that they may
not have te opportunity to develop their skills as
well as they might:
winch driving is easy to do reasonably and rather harder
to do well or
very well - I just think it's worth (the club) taking
the trouble to
arrange things so they can be done very well.


In case you were wondering, I am a complete sod to
winch drivers when
I'm flying. I pull off for overspeeds without a second's
hesitation

I wasn't wondering.......
Hmmm that must be interesting and demoralising for
the winch driver, everytime you hit the wind gradient!

If the glider overspeeds when it goes through a wind
gradient, either
the pilot or the winch driver is doing something wrong.

Or are you talking about the last third of the launch,
you didn't make it all that clear?

I check the placard. If I go over the winch launch
speed I pull off,
at any phase of the launch. I absolutely do not subscribe
to the
belief that it's OK to overspeed - and particularly
not at the the
time when the glider is dangling 1500' of cable from
it.

Well Ian, hope you never give a 'cr*p (my words not
yours) launch and no one will ever pull off after
one
of your polished launches, wouldn't want to put ideas
into your club members heads here

Yup, sometimes I get it wrong. I hope pilots would
not hang on to a
dangerously fast or slow winch launch to protect me
ego. When I do get
it wrong I apologise, sincerely, and try to do better
next time. When
I get it right (this is easier on circuit days) I ask
the pilot how
the launch was, pay attention to what they say, and
try to get it
better next time.

Maybe it takes your WD's 10 launches to get their
eye
in, because they know its you on the other end instructing??


I'm only a winch instructor. When I'm at the other
end I want to fly!

Ian

On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:12:32 UTC, Don Johnstone
wrote:

Sorry Ian, a winch driver should be able to get it
right first time. I am very disappointed if I do not
get it right on the first launch.

Well, I'd hope too, but it depends on the site. Most of my winching
has been on a hill top site where I can't see the glider until it's
about 100' up (humped field) and where the upper winds are very
unpredictable.

There is a signal that the pilot can use to indicate
overspeed. If the reaction to this signal is not an
immediate reduction in speed then I agree the launch
should be terminated.

Nit picking time. The signal is for "too fast" as in "faster than I
want". There is only one signal for overspeed, and it involves the Big
Yellow Knob...

Weak links help protect against local structural damage, but even with
an unbroken weak link there's a lot of additional loading. The weak
link may be twice the AUW of the glider so in the final stages of the
launch the loading on the wings can get to over three times the
unaccelerated flying load. Structurally, this is much more than 3G,
because the additional loading is being applied only to the
non-lifting parts.


Ian

PS Character tests for winch drivers number 1: refusing to launch an
ASH25 on a black link, as the pilots invariably demand, and insisting
on a brown one, as it should be...

I take of with my ASW20 on a black link. And it's not the winch driver who
decides about this.
And yes, I've been a couple of thousand time on the throttle side of the
winch, too.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Ian Johnston" a écrit dans le message de news:
dzZo7CxomoOm-pn2- PS Character tests for winch drivers number 1: refusing
to launch an
ASH25 on a black link, as the pilots invariably demand, and insisting
on a brown one, as it should be...

Ian Johnston writes
PS Character tests for winch drivers number 1: refusing to launch an
ASH25 on a black link, as the pilots invariably demand, and insisting
on a brown one, as it should be...

Winch drivers from our site wouldn't get the chance to refuse. They get
told (and are expected to confirm) glider type and cable (runway or
"remaining") to launch on, but no mention of which link is in use.
Offering and accepting the correct link is (at least in our case) down
to the signaller (who also has responsibility for attaching the cable)
and pilot.

As far as character is concerned, I'm pretty certain the last time I
launched an ASH25 (as signaller, at least) it was on a black link. Or it
would have been if that was what the pilot had asked for. Unless I
absolutely know different, I take it as the pilot's responsibility, in
much the same way as I ask for confirmation from the pilot that their
airbrakes are closed before launch, but don't visually check to ensure
they've physically confirmed they're locked as a result of my asking.

The weak-link bone of contention I've come across most frequently is
with the Pilatus B4, where pilots invariably want the blue link instead
of the BGA mandated white.


--
Bill Gribble
http://www.scapegoatsanon.demon.co.uk
- Learn from the mistakes of others.
- You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.