Takeoff/Landing same direction?

Here is a question for you DPE's and Instructors to weigh in on.

A student pilot on his checkride, was not passed for his private for
the following reason. He landed in the opposite direction that he took
off from.

A little background, the entire days operation was operating from
runway 18. His two previous flights
with this DPE went without a hitch. On the third flight as the student
was entering the pattern, the DPE instructed the student to cross the
IP and as he did so he instructed the student to open the dive brakes
(SGS-233) fully and then announced to the student "Stuck Spoilers".

The student at this point made the decision to enter the pattern for
runway 36. He told us later that it was because he was already going in
that direction as he entered the IP and losing altitude fast and didn't
feel he had enough altitude to make a 180 and enter the pattern in the
opposite direction.

He felt that the stuck spoilers created an extraordinary situation and
therefore a downwind landing was the safer option.

This was followed by much discussion concerning whether he violated any
rules.

So, here is the question for you knowledable fellows.
Is there anything in the Private Pilot flight test or in the FAR's that
this pilot violated, or was this a justifiable reason for the DPE to
fail this student?
_____________

As an aside and much to everyone at the field's amusement, about 20
minutes later this DPE then proceeded to taxi his personal aircraft out
and take off "downwind" the same direction he just busted the student
for.

Willie G.

What area(s) of operation is/are noted on the disapproval form? Are
there any other notes?

Directed versus instructed: DPEs are specifically prohibited from
engaging in any instruction during a check. From the rest of the
context, I see that did not happen, but I wanted to make clear that the
examiner is to be a mere passenger for the flight. One that may only
make requests and evaluate the applicant.

You did not note any traffic or weather in your description either. Was
the applicant's landing downwind? By combining tasks an examiner could
ask to see such a landing. Was the approach unsafe in some other way?
Then the examiner could fault airport operations.

If this is an uncontrolled field, anyone may land in any direction so
long as the right of way rules are followed, traffic scan is maintained
and situational awareness is not compromised.

Since I wasn't the examiner here, I am only groping at possibilities.

Terry Claussen
DPE Estrella

Willie wrote:
Here is a question for you DPE's and Instructors to weigh in on.

A student pilot on his checkride, was not passed for his private for
the following reason. He landed in the opposite direction that he took
off from.

A little background, the entire days operation was operating from
runway 18. His two previous flights
with this DPE went without a hitch. On the third flight as the student
was entering the pattern, the DPE instructed the student to cross the
IP and as he did so he instructed the student to open the dive brakes
(SGS-233) fully and then announced to the student "Stuck Spoilers".

The student at this point made the decision to enter the pattern for
runway 36. He told us later that it was because he was already going in
that direction as he entered the IP and losing altitude fast and didn't
feel he had enough altitude to make a 180 and enter the pattern in the
opposite direction.

He felt that the stuck spoilers created an extraordinary situation and
therefore a downwind landing was the safer option.

This was followed by much discussion concerning whether he violated any
rules.

So, here is the question for you knowledable fellows.
Is there anything in the Private Pilot flight test or in the FAR's that
this pilot violated, or was this a justifiable reason for the DPE to
fail this student?

I'm no instructor or DPE, but here is a thought: Maybe the examiner
felt the examinee should have set up his pattern to accommodate such a
contingency?
However, IMHO the ability to adapt a landing pattern to the current
situation, shows more nimble thinking than forcing the situation to fit
the routine pattern.

Shawn

P.S. I suspect you left out a number of details about the exam that only
the DPE could provide.

I'll betcha since the D.E. couldn't see the sun he figured they'd
landed after sunset. Therefor violating a FAR. Oops wrong forum!!

Shawn Curry wrote:
P.S. I suspect you left out a number of details about the exam that only
the DPE could provide.

I probably did, but the DPE left before discussing his view, so I don't
know.

Thanks for your responses fellows, I guess I didn't word my question as
well as I could have.
This was not an attack on the DPE, just trying to get an idea on
whether there is any rule or reg that says you have to land in the same
direction as you took off from.

The consensus was that you can land either way so long as you can do it
safely. Sure there are mitigating circumstances, but in this particular
case (uncontrolled field, no other traffic, wind sock
barely moving) a 10 minute flight at the end of the day, the group
think is that it really didn't matter which way he landed.

So to be clear:

Is there any rule or reg that specifies you have to land in the same
direction you took off from at the same airport?

Thanks in advance,
Willie G.

First you should understand that in order for any examiner
or instructor to be knowledgeable enough to fairly
form an educated opinion as to the appropriateness
of an applicants failure, they first would need to
have all the facts associated with the complete flight
test. To provide
this information, the applicant and the examiner would
have both had to agree to sit down separately with
you and give you a complete debrief of the flight test.
Hopefully you would have obtained their permission
to post some of this information on RAS for a public
review.

However by the overall tone of your post and the omission
of any reference to the area of operation and task
the examiner listed on the applicants disapproval notice
and a vague reference to some possible FAR violation,
some of us might have the impression that you have
little first hand information regarding this flight
test, and maybe even a bit of bias in general against
this Examiner.

Prior to giving our educated opinions, I’m sure at
least some of us would like far more information.
Maybe even some basics like, are you an instructor
or perhaps even this applicants instructor? Are you
a family member, friend or even acquaintance of the
applicant? Did you debrief
the applicant and or examiner shortly after the test?
Did you witness the flight in question? Prior to
this test did you have any negative attitude toward
this examiner or examiners in general?

Unfortunately your original post is so vague that it
is impossible to be sure of the actual landing path
as planned and as eventually executed. Clearly describing
the landing in detail would leave far less room for
conjecture. When you say IP, at some locations this
means the point where you start your 45 entry to down
wind, while at other
locations they mean the point where you turn from the
45 onto the down wind.

So that is why you need to be quite specific, such
as describing an entry as: the applicant was 1/3 of
a mile East of mid field over the IP facing West and
about to turn right for the standard left down wind
pattern for runway 18, which was currently the active
runway considering the winds were from 170 degrees
at 8 knots gusting to 12.
At this point the examiner instructed the applicant
to open the dive brakes fully and then announced to
the applicant “Spoilers are now stuck full open”.
Also don’t forget to include other issues such as other
traffic on the ground and in the air. Get the idea
here?

If you are willing to put the effort into it, I’m sure
some examiners and instructors will give you an informed
opinion. However if you’re just looking for some rants
about examiners failing applicants unjustifiably, then
you can probably just sit back and relax.

M Eiler
DPE gliders


At 14:06 11 September 2006, Willie wrote:
Here is a question for you DPE's and Instructors to
weigh in on.

A student pilot on his checkride, was not passed for
his private for

Martin Eiler wrote:

(snip) Get the idea here?

Oh yeah! Actually, the question was simple and direct - is there
anything that specifies which way you have to land on an uncontrolled
airfield, given no wind or traffic. Some of the pilots hanging around
were sure that you had to land the same way you took off, etc. Others
disagreed. Argument (friendly) ensued.

But thanks for your helpful (if somewhat defensive - touch a nerve
there?) comments...

Update: The following day, the applicant and DPE successfully
completed the checkride, and we now have a new member to our sport.
Which is a good thing, since he is young and has a cute wife, who is
still willing to hang out at the gliderport while he flies.

Watched the whole thing, didn't understand the reasoning for all of it,
but the outcome was good in the end.

Kirk
66

At 19:01 11 September 2006, Kirk.Stant wrote:
Martin Eiler wrote:

(snip) Get the idea here?

Oh yeah! Actually, the question was simple and direct
- is there
anything that specifies which way you have to land
on an uncontrolled
airfield, given no wind or traffic. Some of the pilots
hanging around
were sure that you had to land the same way you took
off, etc. Others
disagreed. Argument (friendly) ensued.

Kirk
66


Kirk.
Really now, if you must ask that question then you
should not be flying
anything.
Chuck

Chuck Griswold wrote:
At 19:01 11 September 2006, Kirk.Stant wrote:

Kirk.
Really now, if you must ask that question then you
should not be flying
anything.

Chuck, I totally agree - I was amazed by the answers to the question!

I've flown from a German glider field located on the side of a hill -
took off (winch) one way (downhill) and landed the other (uphill),
regardless of wind. And of course, a rope break will require you to
land opposite your takeoff direction, normally. And out west, late in
the evening you may have to land down-Sun/down wind or you are blind;
the list goes on. You do what makes sense and is safest.

The point is, many "casual" pilots really do not understand all this.
So the discussion (BS session, of course) goes: " well, he busted
because he landed in the opposite direction that he took off from..."
accompanied by nodding of heads by some of the local pilots (both
experienced and inexperienced). Other pilots jump in: "WTF are you
talking about, there isn't anything in the FARs or AIM or (pick your
source) that says that!". Much arm waving and spirited discussion
ensues, more adult beverages are consumed, and everybody goes home
thinking the other pilots are clueless dorks!

Classic case of a little knowledge being a dangerous think, I think. A
problem which I fear is endemic in american soaring due to the somewhat
inconsistent skills of our instructors, god bless them.

Kirk
66

"kirk.stant" wrote in message
ups.com...

Chuck Griswold wrote:
At 19:01 11 September 2006, Kirk.Stant wrote:

Kirk.
Really now, if you must ask that question then you
should not be flying
anything.

Chuck, I totally agree - I was amazed by the answers to the question!

I've flown from a German glider field located on the side of a hill -
took off (winch) one way (downhill) and landed the other (uphill),
regardless of wind. And of course, a rope break will require you to
land opposite your takeoff direction, normally. And out west, late in
the evening you may have to land down-Sun/down wind or you are blind;
the list goes on. You do what makes sense and is safest.

The point is, many "casual" pilots really do not understand all this.
So the discussion (BS session, of course) goes: " well, he busted
because he landed in the opposite direction that he took off from..."
accompanied by nodding of heads by some of the local pilots (both
experienced and inexperienced). Other pilots jump in: "WTF are you
talking about, there isn't anything in the FARs or AIM or (pick your
source) that says that!". Much arm waving and spirited discussion
ensues, more adult beverages are consumed, and everybody goes home
thinking the other pilots are clueless dorks!

Classic case of a little knowledge being a dangerous think, I think. A
problem which I fear is endemic in american soaring due to the somewhat
inconsistent skills of our instructors, god bless them.

Kirk
66


We don't know the facts that might apply to the situation between the
examiner and the applicant so we can't comment. I would assume the DPE had
a very good reason for his decision.

But, to address the situation of stuck-open spoilers, I would exercise my
authority under FAR 91.3(b) and "land the damn aircraft the safest way I
could" regardless of landing direction. Spoilers are a primary flight
control and stuck-open spoilers is a full fledged emergency requiring
decisive action. FAR 91.3b allows any reasonable deviation from the regs
needed to achieve a safe landing. This is not to suggest any FARs were
broken.

Bill Daniels