Update on Minden tradegy

Eric Greenwell wrote:

Five turns, six turns - not a very comforting margin if you are spinning
down through a cloud when you might need many more than that.

The point is, it's assumed that after 5 turns the spin is fully
established and nothing new will happen in the next 27 turns. That said,
a spin is not a recommended method to escape cloud in a modern glider.

Stefan

(John Firth) wrote in message ...
I too learned to fly clouds, in the UK on Turn and Ball; those old gliders did
at least have speed limiting dve brakes which I never had to use.
When I graduated to the Oly with a German WWII artificail horizon
cloud flying was the proverbial piece of cake. When my AH failed
(low battery) about 12000 ft in Yugo '72, I was glad that I had those hours
Of time using T and B.
I was told that a skilled pilot with a Bohli freely gimballed compass
could adequately cloud fly and Bohlis were banned from World comps.
I did prove to my limited satisfaction that with great care and circumspection
one could maintain a controlled trun using the COOK vertcal bearing compass
but I do not think I would try it now.
In closing, always have a backup, if you go IFR; the offical report of a
sad accident to a single engine transatlantic delivery happened on final
IFR approach to Reyavik , when the pilot reported AH failure! (no T and B)
That is pegging your life to one unkown instrument.
Don't do it.
John Firth
Old, no longer bold pilot.

.... which brings us back to the question of whether or not modern GPS
displays of the sort that Glide Navigator provides would be adequate
on an EMERGENCY basis to provide roll reference. Just to clarify, I
fully agree with all of the posts that intentional flight in IMC
without proper instruments is nuts. I have over the last 20 years
only a few hours of needle/ball/airspeed training and practice, and I
would never rely on it today given how rusty I am. However, it's
basically a moot point in the US, as almost no gliders are equipped
with an AH or even an electric T&B. So, in a pinch, the question on
the table is: Benign Spiral or maintain level flight (if possible)
using available instruments? My guess is that the GPS output is
probably too coarse to provide rapid enough roll information,
especially in turbulence. I think I'll go up with someone in a
two-place and give it a shot. Report to follow...

P3

Stefan wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:

Five turns, six turns - not a very comforting margin if you are
spinning down through a cloud when you might need many more than that.


The point is, it's assumed that after 5 turns the spin is fully
established and nothing new will happen in the next 27 turns. That said,
a spin is not a recommended method to escape cloud in a modern glider.

Fully established? Flat and unrecoverable maybe. Also, I couldn't get
our club Blanik to spin (dual) three times before it would end up in a
spiral dive.

Shawn

Shawn wrote:

Fully established? Flat and unrecoverable maybe.

If it meets the JAR certification (which I don't know), it's not. That's
the whole point of certification.

Also, I couldn't get
our club Blanik to spin (dual) three times before it would end up in a
spiral dive.

If you read my earlier posts, you'd see that this was exactly my point.

Stefan

You would be surprised how fast a föhn gap can close
- easily within a minute.

You can descend about 12000 feet per minute in a decent
modern glider. However, if you are more than 12000
feet above the cloud layer, or don’t notice the gap
closing immediately, your stuffed.

However, if you are content to duffer around going
nowhere and not climbing too high you will probably
be able to avoid ever getting caught above cloud.
But if you want to fly long tasks in the wave you will
occasionally need to fly over 8/8 cloud. Fact.

Mike



At 16:48 02 November 2004, Stefan wrote:
Ben Flewett wrote:

If you do enough cross country wave flying you will,
sooner of later, get trapped above cloud.

I do not agree. Know the weather. Allow yourself enough
time to build
experience. Keep sharp on the development of the weather.
Never, never,
never fly above a lenticularis. Keep your föhn gap
in sight. Be sure
your glider can penetrate against the wind. And if
in doubt, don't go.
But you knew all this before.

If you insist that getting trapped by cloud can't be
avoided, then, by
all means, install at least a needle and get some training
on it. You
simply can't control a slippery glass glider in cloud
without a gyro.

Stefan

I think part of the problem is the normal pilot response to a worsening
situation: equipment and experience play a huge part.

If people are 'caught' above cloud with no blind flying instruments, there is a
definite tendency to go into 'panic mode' and take the first available
(unlikely to be the best) option and immediately try to spin/dive through the
cloud layer. Much in the same way that stressed pilots in the mountains
airbrake down (and crash) into tiny bits of green.

If you know where you are (most gliders have GPS) and are not actually IN cloud
then you have time to work out what you are going to do. (Although maybe some
thought should have been given to this earlier?) Sometimes just waiting will
improve the situation. Or you might have to fly somewhere else where you can
let down clear of cloud.

The world of wave/IMC glider flying is far removed from that of normal thermal
soaring. Under the clouds, if the sun goes in, the lift stops and you land.
Over them, it just carries on. When you are wave flying a sailplane on a cloudy
day, especially at altitude, you are operating in conditions where most other
aircraft are pressurised, turbine powered, de-iced and contain a full suite of
navigation and autoflight equipment.

When I go wave flying with others, I am always surprised by the seeming lack of
PREPARATION or THOUGHT about what might happen. I suppose I have rescued too
many people/gliders from the sides of mountains or edges of lakes. Wave flying
above 8/8 gives me a real 'heightened sense of awareness', i.e. I'm scared.
Doesn't stop me enjoying it immensely, though.

A lack of any coherent contingency plans feauture strongly in
incidents/accidents. What will I do if the wave gap closes? My oxygen gets
low/fails? Controls start freezing up? Airbrakes won't open? etc. Where are my
nearest suitable landing places? How will I get to them? How can I fly a
non-precision approach in a glider in a strong wind, using GPS?

The answers to most of these questions can be worked out on the ground, at your
leisure.

To those of you who regularly fly above cloud with no instruments: Good Luck!
(You'll need it.)

I don't understand why in some countries most gliders have no IF instruments in
their panels at all. I know that sailplanes are not allowed to fly in IMC in
some states but I'm sure there aren't laws preventing the FITTING and even
non-IMC USE of blind flying kit? After all, you don't take off with the
INTENTION of using your parachute but it might come in handy at some point...

You can pick up a perfectly serviceable T&S/ball combo for $100-200. In fact
I've just seen one on Ebay for $9 with 3 days to run. This could be the
cheapest instrument in your glider and one day the most vital.

Mike Hessington wrote:

But if you want to fly long tasks in the wave you will
occasionally need to fly over 8/8 cloud. Fact.

This could be argued, but I'm not going to do so. As I said in an
earlier post: If you are willing to put yourself in that situation, then
by all means install needle and ball. There is no way to bring a
slippery glider safely down without, and there is no substitute. All
those GPS gizmos are nice, but far too slow.

And, while we are at it, be sure thre is still some VMC left below the
cloud deck, and there is a reachable landing spot. After all, waves tend
to form over mountains. But then, this may be a question of temperament.
I've heard that there are even people who enjoy night flying in a light
single.

Stefan

If you are in such a situation and have not even a T&B installed (as Edward
points out, a $100-200 item), you're just plain stupid. Fact.


--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Mike Hessington" a écrit dans le
message de news: ...
You would be surprised how fast a föhn gap can close
- easily within a minute.

You can descend about 12000 feet per minute in a decent
modern glider. However, if you are more than 12000
feet above the cloud layer, or don't notice the gap
closing immediately, your stuffed.

However, if you are content to duffer around going
nowhere and not climbing too high you will probably
be able to avoid ever getting caught above cloud.
But if you want to fly long tasks in the wave you will
occasionally need to fly over 8/8 cloud. Fact.

Mike



At 16:48 02 November 2004, Stefan wrote:
Ben Flewett wrote:

If you do enough cross country wave flying you will,
sooner of later, get trapped above cloud.

I do not agree. Know the weather. Allow yourself enough
time to build
experience. Keep sharp on the development of the weather.
Never, never,
never fly above a lenticularis. Keep your föhn gap
in sight. Be sure
your glider can penetrate against the wind. And if
in doubt, don't go.
But you knew all this before.

If you insist that getting trapped by cloud can't be
avoided, then, by
all means, install at least a needle and get some training
on it. You
simply can't control a slippery glass glider in cloud
without a gyro.

Stefan

I was surprised to find in a local club a beautifully equiped
glider (actually, several), none of which had any IMC instruments.
I would expect at least a small T&B in each one.

Panel space was an issue, and I suppose there is some current draw.
And I'd expect it might be hard to find an A&P (mechamic) to install
one on a switch

I've had a gyro failure in IMC at night in a power plane and
the T&B definitely saved my life. I guess this is why
I'm really a fan of them, but perhaps I'm a bit biased.

Is a T&B really that rare in gliders? When I go to Minden some
day, am I niave to assume the commercially rented gliders
there will have a T&B?

In article ,
Stefan wrote:
Mike Hessington wrote:

But if you want to fly long tasks in the wave you will
occasionally need to fly over 8/8 cloud. Fact.

This could be argued, but I'm not going to do so. As I said in an
earlier post: If you are willing to put yourself in that situation, then
by all means install needle and ball. There is no way to bring a
slippery glider safely down without, and there is no substitute. All
those GPS gizmos are nice, but far too slow.
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

In article , Todd Pattist
writes
(Mark James Boyd) wrote:

I was surprised to find in a local club a beautifully equiped
glider (actually, several), none of which had any IMC instruments.
I would expect at least a small T&B in each one.

Training gliders are for training, and no one gives
instrument training in gliders that I'm aware of.

Plenty goes on in the UK. Two-seaters can be flown "under the hood" for
instrument training at a number of UK clubs.

A tandem two-seater can be used for training from the rear cockpit with
an instructor/safety pilot in the front. The rear cockpit can be shaded
out with curtains so that the trainee can only see the instruments and
not the outside world. The curtains can be raised for launch and
landing.

A side-by-side two-seater can be flown with the pilot being trained
wearing a hood that obscures the outside world but allows the
instruments to be seen. Hood-peeping should be discouraged if training
is to be properly conducted.

This sort of training is less sophisticated than that conducted in
professional aviation, but is effective in a sport aviation environment.
IMHO.

Others have made the point that above 8/8 there is no substitute to
having at least one gyro instrument. Even the humble turn and slip
instrument will do! It's cheap, cheerful and works safely with little
battery power.

--
Ian Strachan
Lasham Gliding Centre, UK