Gasohol

The denizens of this ng have known and discussed this for some time now,
sir. WHere have you been?

Jim

--
There are only 10 kinds of people in the world.
Those who count in binary and those who don't

"Denny" wrote in message
oups.com...


The joke on us all is that gas pumped to your local distribution
terminal has no alcohol in it... At the distribution terminal are huge
tanks of gas, and smaller tnaks of alcohol, dye, additives, etc...
The driver pulls up with his tanker... Keys in who the gas is for
Shell, Marathon, ETC.and what the octane rating is and the computer
selects the appropriate base stock of gasoline and mixes in the proper
additives and dyes as it pumps the load to his tanker, including the
alcohol... We are being hosed by the oil companies, in cahoots with
the government, in more ways than just price...

On Jun 4, 1:33 pm, "RST Engineering" wrote:
The denizens of this ng have known and discussed this for some time now,
sir. WHere have you been?

Jim


Did I beat you up or something when we were kids?

denny

On May 30, 7:13 pm, "Blueskies" wrote:
Is it true that there is no longer any requirement to label gasoline contaminated with alcohol?

Good article hehttp://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Gasoline.html

I just did the add water to gas test on a couple of local gas sources and all contain alcohol, and none of the pumps
said anything about it. The feds just dropped the requirement to label the pumps and we all missed it?

Jay, where do you fill the grape from and how do you know there is no evil alcohol in it?

When MTBE was outlawed, the only feasable alternative to add oxygen to
gasoline was alcohol. This is mandated in ceartin parts of the
country - mostly the east and west coasts plus mant of the major
cities. Many states have followed suit and now require 5 or 10%
alcohol to be add to auto gas. Some states require that the retail
pumps lable that the gasoline contains alcohol - some states do not.
Currently retailers can save money by adding alcohol to the gasoline
because the alcohol is less expensive than gasoline, so they can blen
it in and sell it to you as auto gasoline - you may not know it. Any
percentage of alcohol in the gasoline will void your auto gas STC.
There are many pushing for a national requirement for alcohol to be
added to auto gas.

Non alcohol auto gas will be available for FBO's to purchase and sell
as auto gas for aviation, but anyone buying auto gas at a retial
outlet and taking it to the airport in 5 gallon containers will need
to check it for alcohol. EAA has a method on line to tell you how to
check it. I recently did a presentation on auto gas with alcoho for
an aviation group, added 10% alcohol to pure 87 octane auto gas - then
some samples I added water - then lowered the temps on all samples to
below freezing.

First thing was that the alcohol would not stay mixed with the auto
gas - it would seperate out. Second thing is that alcohol absorbs
water - so you could not see the water in the alcohol/auto gas
mixture, but when the temp was lowered to below freezing the water
froze and ice settled out to the bottom.

All said - I will not be using auto gas in my plane - it looked like
an easy way to have a line freeze and turn the plane into a glider.

an easy way to have a line freeze and turn the plane into a glider.

Then why don't cars have line freezing trouble with E-10 gas? Here in
Minnesota, gas line freezeups have essentially disappeared because of
the mandated E-10. It is the only good thing about gasahpol
though...........

I think a major reason not to use E-10 in certificated aircraft is the
~5% power reduction.

On Jun 3, 10:50 pm, nrp wrote:
an easy way to have a line freeze and turn the plane into a glider.

Then why don't cars have line freezing trouble with E-10 gas? Here in
Minnesota, gas line freezeups have essentially disappeared because of
the mandated E-10. It is the only good thing about gasahpol
though...........

I think a major reason not to use E-10 in certificated aircraft is the
~5% power reduction.

Alcohol is an emulsifier that keeps water mixed with gasoline. It is
also an antifreeze that supresses the freezing temperature of water.
If you have a car that has ice in the fuel line, adding alcohol will
melt
it.

--

FF

On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:46:05 -0700, wrote:

On Jun 3, 10:50 pm, nrp wrote:
an easy way to have a line freeze and turn the plane into a glider.

Then why don't cars have line freezing trouble with E-10 gas? Here in
Minnesota, gas line freezeups have essentially disappeared because of
the mandated E-10. It is the only good thing about gasahpol
though...........

I think a major reason not to use E-10 in certificated aircraft is the
~5% power reduction.

Alcohol is an emulsifier that keeps water mixed with gasoline. It is
also an antifreeze that supresses the freezing temperature of water.
If you have a car that has ice in the fuel line, adding alcohol will
melt
it.
And adding a bit more water makes the water and alky drop out od
suspension. Called Phase Separation. It's temperature sensitive, so in
a plane at ground level you may still have gasahol, but at 4000 feet,
you are about 16 degrees F. colder - and that may be enough to trip
the phase separation. Bad Ju-Ju when the engine gets a gulp of watered
down hooch when it's expecting gasoline.

On 2 stroke engines (ultralights, snowmobiles etc) when this happens
the engine not only looses fuel, but it looses lubrication too,
because the separated hooch has no oil in it. It's at the bottom of
the tank, where the pickup is, so pistons are often destroyed before
the driver/pilot even knows he has a problem.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Jun 23, 3:12 am, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:46:05 -0700, wrote:
On Jun 3, 10:50 pm, nrp wrote:
an easy way to have a line freeze and turn the plane into a glider.

Then why don't cars have line freezing trouble with E-10 gas? Here in
Minnesota, gas line freezeups have essentially disappeared because of
the mandated E-10. It is the only good thing about gasahpol
though...........

I think a major reason not to use E-10 in certificated aircraft is the
~5% power reduction.

Alcohol is an emulsifier that keeps water mixed with gasoline. It is
also an antifreeze that supresses the freezing temperature of water.
If you have a car that has ice in the fuel line, adding alcohol will
melt
it.

And adding a bit more water makes the water and alky drop out od
suspension. Called Phase Separation. It's temperature sensitive, so in
a plane at ground level you may still have gasahol, but at 4000 feet,
you are about 16 degrees F. colder - and that may be enough to trip
the phase separation. Bad Ju-Ju when the engine gets a gulp of watered
down hooch when it's expecting gasoline.

On 2 stroke engines (ultralights, snowmobiles etc) when this happens
the engine not only looses fuel, but it looses lubrication too,
because the separated hooch has no oil in it. It's at the bottom of
the tank, where the pickup is, so pistons are often destroyed before
the driver/pilot even knows he has a problem.


The alcohol will also produce a greater temperature drop in
when it evaporates in the carburetor, increasing the danger
of carb ice, something that is seldom a problem in cars,
especially those with fuel injection....

--

FF

wrote:
On Jun 3, 10:50 pm, nrp wrote:
an easy way to have a line freeze and turn the plane into a glider.
Then why don't cars have line freezing trouble with E-10 gas? Here in
Minnesota, gas line freezeups have essentially disappeared because of
the mandated E-10. It is the only good thing about gasahpol
though...........

I think a major reason not to use E-10 in certificated aircraft is the
~5% power reduction.


I think ethanol in gasoline is a stupid waste of agricultural resources,
but if you are the typical GA pilot an you're computing your safety
margins out close enough that 5% makes a difference, you're likely to be
removed from the gene pool before long anyway.

I ran out of gas twice with my latest vehicle. I had it before the gasohol
change and I knew where it ran out because I intentionally ran it out while
I was carrying gas for the plane. Since gasohol, I've run out twice well
above the empty mark set before.

Had to shake the car some to get it going when I put gas in, too.

mike

"Bryan Martin" wrote in message
...
With gasohol, the gas stations no longer have to bother draining out the
accumulated water from their tanks. The small amount of water that
condenses out in the tanks simply dissolves into the next load of
gasohol that gets poured into the tank and you pump a little bit of it
into your car every time you fill up. Of course, if you get too much
water in the gas, it settles out to the bottom of the tank and takes all
the alcohol with it. You end up with a mixture at the bottom that won't
burn worth a damn and the rest of the gasoline with a much reduced
octane rating.

"SS2MO" wrote in message oups.com...
On May 30, 7:13 pm, "Blueskies" wrote:
Is it true that there is no longer any requirement to label gasoline contaminated with alcohol?

Good article hehttp://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Gasoline.html

I just did the add water to gas test on a couple of local gas sources and all contain alcohol, and none of the pumps
said anything about it. The feds just dropped the requirement to label the pumps and we all missed it?

Jay, where do you fill the grape from and how do you know there is no evil alcohol in it?

When MTBE was outlawed, the only feasable alternative to add oxygen to
gasoline was alcohol. This is mandated in ceartin parts of the
country - mostly the east and west coasts plus mant of the major
cities. Many states have followed suit and now require 5 or 10%
alcohol to be add to auto gas. Some states require that the retail
pumps lable that the gasoline contains alcohol - some states do not.
Currently retailers can save money by adding alcohol to the gasoline
because the alcohol is less expensive than gasoline, so they can blen
it in and sell it to you as auto gasoline - you may not know it. Any
percentage of alcohol in the gasoline will void your auto gas STC.
There are many pushing for a national requirement for alcohol to be
added to auto gas.


Old news...

Current news, the feds passed the law in 2005 that all auto fuel will contain alcohol.

Non alcohol auto gas will be available for FBO's to purchase and sell
as auto gas for aviation, but anyone buying auto gas at a retial
outlet and taking it to the airport in 5 gallon containers will need
to check it for alcohol. EAA has a method on line to tell you how to
check it. I recently did a presentation on auto gas with alcoho for
an aviation group, added 10% alcohol to pure 87 octane auto gas - then
some samples I added water - then lowered the temps on all samples to
below freezing.

First thing was that the alcohol would not stay mixed with the auto
gas - it would seperate out. Second thing is that alcohol absorbs
water - so you could not see the water in the alcohol/auto gas
mixture, but when the temp was lowered to below freezing the water
froze and ice settled out to the bottom.


Is the so called cold weather auto fuel minus alcohol? I don't think so...

All said - I will not be using auto gas in my plane - it looked like
an easy way to have a line freeze and turn the plane into a glider.


Just gotta be sure there is no alky in there...